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Post by steve on Oct 23, 2008 9:35:28 GMT
Pidgey wrote:
If the oil is going to run out, or drilling/mining of fossil fuel resources is going to become unsustainable, then shouldn't we be trying to conserve resource, heavily develop renewables, and move our economies to a different level where energy supplies are uncertain (weather dependent) and costly.
Or are you a "goob" who thinks that fossil fuels will last forever.
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Post by Acolyte on Oct 23, 2008 10:38:31 GMT
Pidgey wrote: If the oil is going to run out, or drilling/mining of fossil fuel resources is going to become unsustainable, then shouldn't we be trying to conserve resource, heavily develop renewables, and move our economies to a different level where energy supplies are uncertain (weather dependent) and costly. Or are you a "goob" who thinks that fossil fuels will last forever. You're a little late to the scene. The Greens & quite a few others are before you. But there's a problem - those running the current energy system aren't letting go - there is an ongoing record of things like better engines, decent electric cars & a variety of better ways to live that have been smothered & removed from the scene. They don't want to give up their billions until it's all gone - then they can trot out the next lot of billions-producing modes. Hemp - close to a miracle plant, banned in most countries (even the non-drug version) produces better cloth than cotton, car bodies than steel, plastic or fibreglass, better paper than wood, better chipboard than pine, better biofuel than corn, multiple proven medicinal uses (aside from relaxation) cleans up industrial waste, grows anywhere. Banned for most of the above reasons. The US systematically destroyed the crop in Bangladesh & gave them 40+ years of death & destruction from floods & starvation - Bang (hemp) was what was holding the landscape together - literally. The US got on its high moral horse & determined to wipe out the crop. Sarich Orbital engine - very efficient & delivered good power to weight, cheap to make on any decent production model - bought out by Corporations & only ever appeared in a lawn mower. I think it was a Chevvy but there was a fairly efficient electric car produced in maybe the 80's - wasn't suitable for long road trips but could have been a winner around town - never got past the prototype stage. I know you'll like this one... but you should do some research before sniggering & rejecting it - the process that got labelled as Cold Fusion - no matter what MIT decided (& you know they perpetrated fraud on the public right?) there was anomalous energy produced. There are now multiple ways to produce the same effect being studied in places like Japan & France - just not in the US. MHD - MagnetoHydroDynamics - back in the 60's (maybe the 50's?) MHD was a promising technology. It was envisaged a power station a block big could power a decent sized city. No CO 2 & clean. Fission & Fusion got the bucks. The list can be extended however long you want. A lot of the same names appear at the tops of each list. Nope, we've known since at least the 60's about the problems with fossil fuels but there's a bunch of people making billions of dollars from how things are - they aren't about to let that go until they've got every last cent from us.
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Post by pidgey on Oct 23, 2008 12:24:04 GMT
Well, when you get into the conspiracy theories about singular inventions, it pays a lot to do one's research. I've believed in and chased down several, only to find them blind alleys. For a certainty, I imagine that some are real but it seems like there's a link somewhere on here to a story that we're hardwired for panic and similar situations. Anyhow, there's an interesting read on the Wiki for the Sarich Orbital: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_engineHemp IS good. Oil we've got a real problem with but we're not going to "run out" anytime soon. What we're stuck with is that the rising cost of production, the increase in demand in growth-based economies and the spiralling debt-service from said growing economies conspire together (no pun intended... ) to make a perfect storm. The alternative energy sources just don't make it in terms of portability and you just can't beat the carbon-based liquid fuels for that. Don't even begin to think that anyone's actually suppressing viable research and development--that's being done in huge amounts and a sense of pure panic is infecting that sector at this point. What you're imagining is that we can add a tax or surcharge to our current energy costs and fund more research to come up with a suitable alternative that can be cheaply produced and effectively scaled to the consumption level of our current civilization. Europe, as compared to the U.S., is a good example of this being done. Only time will tell if it's actually going to work but it's not looking good so far. Yesterday, I read an article where Iran says that it needs oil at approximately US $100/barrel to break even at current production and $120/barrel for Venezuela. For a graph that can help illustrate the effect: www.princeton.edu/hubbert/current-events.htmlYeah, yeah... I know... "it's the speculators!"... "it's the sagging infrastructure!"... "it's all due to 'above-ground-factors'!"... Regardless, the results are the results, and the effect is the effect. Personally, I drive just a very few miles per day (only four miles from work), restrict my "consumerism" way-the-hell-and-gone beyond most people's imagination, and am working on a very green home-power system (sustainable). However, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if everyone started living like me tomorrow, our economy would collapse that selfsame tomorrow night (or reasonably soon thereafter).
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Post by Acolyte on Oct 23, 2008 19:45:04 GMT
I lived through the Sarich times. He got $100 million for his engine so somebody thought it was a workable idea. And as I say, it came out in a lawnmower, but you're right it pays to research... Why it never took off in cars remains in dispute, but the sophisticated fuel-injection and combustion system was developed for use in two-stroke engines and is used today in boat engines, motorbikes, lawnmowers and some small cars.
Mr Sarich later used the reported $100 million he received from the sale of the intellectual property rights to the engine to develop his small family company into today's massive property and investment empire. And that Wiki article is in dispute for neutrality & accuracy. I'm not so sure about some of the altrernative energies - is it that thye don't measure up or that they aren't funded through the development phase? You make some good points about oil. The system within which we are trying to survive is not a good one. Consumerism & greed flourish under rampant capitalism & seem to be heading us into disaster. I also try to live as frugally (eco-wise) as I can & I stay away from processed foods & try to buy quality so I can keep what I buy longer. But it's difficult to do.
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Post by pidgey on Oct 23, 2008 21:22:44 GMT
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wylie
Level 3 Rank
Posts: 129
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Post by wylie on Oct 23, 2008 22:35:39 GMT
Pidgey wrote: If the oil is going to run out, or drilling/mining of fossil fuel resources is going to become unsustainable, then shouldn't we be trying to conserve resource, heavily develop renewables, and move our economies to a different level where energy supplies are uncertain (weather dependent) and costly. Or are you a "goob" who thinks that fossil fuels will last forever. You're a little late to the scene. The Greens & quite a few others are before you. But there's a problem - those running the current energy system aren't letting go - there is an ongoing record of things like better engines, decent electric cars & a variety of better ways to live that have been smothered & removed from the scene. They don't want to give up their billions until it's all gone - then they can trot out the next lot of billions-producing modes. Hemp - close to a miracle plant, banned in most countries (even the non-drug version) produces better cloth than cotton, car bodies than steel, plastic or fibreglass, better paper than wood, better chipboard than pine, better biofuel than corn, multiple proven medicinal uses (aside from relaxation) cleans up industrial waste, grows anywhere. Banned for most of the above reasons. The US systematically destroyed the crop in Bangladesh & gave them 40+ years of death & destruction from floods & starvation - Bang (hemp) was what was holding the landscape together - literally. The US got on its high moral horse & determined to wipe out the crop. Sarich Orbital engine - very efficient & delivered good power to weight, cheap to make on any decent production model - bought out by Corporations & only ever appeared in a lawn mower. I think it was a Chevvy but there was a fairly efficient electric car produced in maybe the 80's - wasn't suitable for long road trips but could have been a winner around town - never got past the prototype stage. I know you'll like this one... but you should do some research before sblack personing & rejecting it - the process that got labelled as Cold Fusion - no matter what MIT decided (& you know they perpetrated fraud on the public right?) there was anomalous energy produced. There are now multiple ways to produce the same effect being studied in places like Japan & France - just not in the US. MHD - MagnetoHydroDynamics - back in the 60's (maybe the 50's?) MHD was a promising technology. It was envisaged a power station a block big could power a decent sized city. No CO 2 & clean. Fission & Fusion got the bucks. The list can be extended however long you want. A lot of the same names appear at the tops of each list. Nope, we've known since at least the 60's about the problems with fossil fuels but there's a bunch of people making billions of dollars from how things are - they aren't about to let that go until they've got every last cent from us. Steve, I agree with everything you said. I was there in 1990 when Pons and Fleischman gave a presentation at the Electrochemical Society meeting on their new electrochemistry results (LOTS of heat!!). I have followed the research ever since. You don't have to be a believer in conspiracy theories (which I am) to understand that Cold Fusion and many other promising solutions to our energy crisis have been bypassed in favor of higher profits. Our entire system is geared in that direction. Environmental factors are either ignored or lied about (lots of that!!). If you want another one for your list, check out the "Powell Engine" www.nustroke.com A very impressive engine with high efficiency and very low environmental impact. Of course, the coming Peak Oil crisis will not be all bad. It will force us all to be more frugal and probably help keep families together (need each other). I truly hope that Cold Fusion (Low Energy Nuclear Reactions) gets its day in the sun, just as electric cars seem about to. One positive will be that the extra CO2 up there will help in some plant growth (e.g. soybeans) so crop yields might be a little higher than they otherwise would be, but of course, the lack of fossil fuel inputs for fertilizer will probably make a bigger difference. Well (most) Americans could probably manage with fewer calories! Keep up the good commentary. Ian
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Post by twawki on Oct 23, 2008 22:53:02 GMT
what about anaerobic oil isnt there also bacteria that reproduce oil and a lot of the oil wells that should have been empty are replenishing?
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 23, 2008 23:30:39 GMT
what about anaerobic oil isnt there also bacteria that reproduce oil and a lot of the oil wells that should have been empty are replenishing? I don't know about wells replenishing - but there is a company in California that claims that they will have industrial levels of output - 10,000 barrels a year? - from genetically modified yeasts and bacteria creating heavy oils.
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wylie
Level 3 Rank
Posts: 129
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Post by wylie on Oct 23, 2008 23:43:26 GMT
There is SOME level of oil formation by bacteria and other "eternal" processes. It is just that the levels involved are absolutely TINY compared to our usage rate. People have a hard time trying to understand 85 million barrels per day. It is just such a staggering number. Here are some comparisons to help grasp the scale of it.
The USA imports 12 millions barrels per day (1/7 of the world's total oil production). That amount of energy is equal to the amount of electricity produced from 750 nuclear power plants!! The number of solar cell arrays needed to generate that amount of energy would cover an area greater than the entire US.
The amount of oil that the world has used so far is about 1 trillion barrels. That is about the volume of Lake Ontario. It is just hard to get your mind around how staggeringly large 85 million barrels per day (the amount that the world uses today), really is.
Hopefully, we will all learn to live with a lot less (especially in the developed - wasteful, world).
Ian
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Post by pidgey on Oct 24, 2008 1:13:18 GMT
what about anaerobic oil isnt there also bacteria that reproduce oil and a lot of the oil wells that should have been empty are replenishing? I don't know about wells replenishing - but there is a company in California that claims that they will have industrial levels of output - 10,000 barrels a year? - from genetically modified yeasts and bacteria creating heavy oils. Scale that up by a factor of about 400,000x and you'll be in the ballpark of today's imports by the US. By the way... you're going to need a buncha' stuff for those bugs to eat to produce that--they don't get it from the CO2 out of the air, you know.
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Post by ron on Oct 24, 2008 2:03:45 GMT
The USA imports 12 millions barrels per day (1/7 of the world's total oil production). That amount of energy is equal to the amount of electricity produced from 750 nuclear power plants!! The number of solar cell arrays needed to generate that amount of energy would cover an area greater than the entire US. Let me see if I can get my math around this: 12,000,000 bbl oil X 42 gallons = 504,000,000 gallons of oil X 140,000 BTU/gallon = 70,560,000,000,000 BTUs / 3214 BTUs/kWh = 21,953,951,462 kWh / 1,000 (kWh in a mWh) = 21,953,952 mega Watt hours / 750 nuclear plants = 29,271 mega watt hours per plant / 24 hours in the day = 1220 mw plant. Do I have the math about right?
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Post by ron on Oct 24, 2008 2:11:02 GMT
BTW, In 2007, the us fleet of 109 nucler reactors produced 19.4 percent of the nations electricity, a grand total of about 806,000 mWh for the year if I'm reading this corrrectly: www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/txt/ptb0902.html
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 24, 2008 14:07:11 GMT
I don't know about wells replenishing - but there is a company in California that claims that they will have industrial levels of output - 10,000 barrels a year? - from genetically modified yeasts and bacteria creating heavy oils. Scale that up by a factor of about 400,000x and you'll be in the ballpark of today's imports by the US. By the way... you're going to need a buncha' stuff for those bugs to eat to produce that--they don't get it from the CO2 out of the air, you know. Well true - this was an initial industrialization of a laboratory process. I believe their thoughts were to have lots of local producers - rather like brewpubs but for oil. If the regulators in the US would allow the more efficient vehicles from Europe that could reduce oil consumption very rapidly. GM can sell cars doing better than 600 miles per tank in Europe and in the US they are only doing 400 miles a tank - makes no sense to me.
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wylie
Level 3 Rank
Posts: 129
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Post by wylie on Oct 24, 2008 16:35:40 GMT
Ron, Thank-you for doing the math. Pretty impressive amount of energy involved isn't it? I think your numbers are better than mine. That means that a number of almost 1000 1 GW nuclear power plants would be more appropriate. However, we should probably be reasonable and mention that the energy from oil is never completely available for any purpose (thermodynamic efficiency, etc.) while the electrical power rating for a Nuke plant doesn't include the heat that is wasted. If you downgrade the oil supply by the average efficiency of an automobile and compare it to the average efficiency of an electrical application (after transmission losses) you would probably have a better direct comparison. So perhaps the correct number is about 500 nuke plants (it doesn't really matter what the actual number is). The point is that replacement of that amount of oil imports with any other form of energy is almost impossible (at least in the short to medium term), and we had better hope that the predictions of Peak Oil are completely wrong!! (IMO they aren't). Just to add to the problem here is a graph of the coal production in the US (from URL below). People are fixated on the total tonnage of coal being produced and ignore the fact that lower grades of coal have considerably less BTU content (more ash, metals, etc. and water). The peak in ENERGY CONTENT of Coal production peaked in the US in 1998, because the relative contribution from lower grade coals (sub-bituminous, lignite) has greatly increased. Has anyone ever burned Lignite coal? It is horrible stuff. (almost peat) Check out the Graph of US Coal production by type and year at this web-site (1st comment by Nate Hagens on the posting at the website) at: anz.theoildrum.com/node/4656#more Many people still say that there are "300 years of coal production left in the US". This is VERY misleading. That statement assumes that the ease with which you extract coal is constant (or close to constant). Nothing could be further from the truth. Even using the graph at the website above does not provide a true description of the problem. That graph is total production and it doesn't include the problem of the amount of energy needed to find and mine the coal. The NET ENERGY GAIN is the key figure of merit (which is very hard to get). The net energy gain from coal production peaked in the US even before 1998. People who think that US coal production is the answer to our energy problems with Oil don't understand this very well. Coal consumption in the US has continued to rise throughout the 20th century despite the huge growth in oil consumption. We simply use too much energy per person in the US (and in most of the western world). We need to be more efficient and less wasteful!! Thanks for the numbers! Ian
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 24, 2008 18:31:43 GMT
What these calculations show is something else - if you take your lower estimate of 500 1GW Nuclear power stations, how many windmills and other 'renewable' power sources would be needed?
It tends to show the huge change that will be required to move away from fossil fuels.
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