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Post by rangertab1 on Oct 10, 2010 2:02:37 GMT
Nice link Daisy. The above quote is why I am trying to find answers to recent (5 years) observations about my region's weather pattern shift. Good read, while I observe the shifting weather pattern. Thanks.
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 10, 2010 11:10:12 GMT
Matt I suggest you read about enthalpy and the affect water vapor has on the enthalpy of a volume of air. www.engineeringtoolbox.com/enthalpy-moist-air-d_683.htmlTemperature is NOT a measure of atmospheric heat content It is common to have lower atmospheric heat content and higher atmospheric temperatures when the air is dry, Look at GOES East loop (this will update but here is today ) www.ssd.noaa.gov/goes/east/natl/loop-wv.htmlSee the HUGE swathe of dry air over the continental US the Gulf of Mexico, Northern Mexico and a good proportion of the North West Atlantic? All that air will need far less heat to be raised in temperature. This is basic physics that AG W always dodges. The planet as a whole maintains a relatively constant relative humidity. You're spouting chaff. Matt - YOU are quoting an _assumption_ I was showing a satellite image loop from the GOES-EAST satellite - an OBSERVATIONYou would not want to demonstrate that you feel assumptions and assertions are more reliable than actual observations would you? |
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Post by matt on Oct 10, 2010 15:44:04 GMT
Matt - YOU are quoting an _assumption_ I was showing a satellite image loop from the GOES-EAST satellite - an OBSERVATIONYou would not want to demonstrate that you feel assumptions and assertions are more reliable than actual observations would you? Your "observation" was about a time-limited regional condition. It has zero bearing on the long-term global condition. |
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daisy
New Member
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Post by daisy on Oct 10, 2010 16:12:15 GMT
Your "observation" was about a time-limited regional condition. It has zero bearing on the long-term global condition. But you're basing your assertions on assumptions which have little to support them. Did you read the link I posted? |
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 10, 2010 17:03:34 GMT
Matt - YOU are quoting an _assumption_ I was showing a satellite image loop from the GOES-EAST satellite - an OBSERVATIONYou would not want to demonstrate that you feel assumptions and assertions are more reliable than actual observations would you? Your "observation" was about a time-limited regional condition. It has zero bearing on the long-term global condition. Your original question was: "Then why are we having record high temperatures? Add a little more chill and we still have near record high temperatures."
This is a time limited question. 'we still have' I pointed out that with a drier atmosphere you can get high air temperatures for less heat energy I then showed you a satellite loop from GOES East showing - admittedly only a 1/3 of the atmosphere - was notably DRY allowing the current higher temperatures for less energy. Unfortunately, AG W has hitched its wagon to atmospheric temperature which is the incorrect metric for Earth's energy budget. That is the reason for the thread - read the title again. |
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Post by steve on Oct 11, 2010 11:21:54 GMT
Nautonnier, as your site says "The sensible heat due to heating evaporated water vapor can be almost neglected." You are confusing the heat capacity of water vapour with the latent heat of evaporation required to create the water vapour. So for example, the basic physics of AGW would point out that heat waves will be stronger (in temperature terms) if the soil is dry. Here is the site steve - it is not mine - but feel free to show everyone the proof that humid air does not have a higher enthalpy than dry air. www.engineeringtoolbox.com/enthalpy-moist-air-d_683.htmlAs you know nautonnier, I did not say that humid air does not have higher enthalpy, I said that your conclusion - that the heat capacity of humid air is significantly different - is wrong. There was a valid point to be made from the site you linked to - that increased absolute humidity is a measure of increased energy content of the air, and that it is harder to warm air in the presence of moist ground (because some of the energy goes into evaporationg the moisture) - that is why humidity data and soil moisture data is important. |
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Post by icefisher on Oct 11, 2010 16:53:10 GMT
I said that your conclusion - that the heat capacity of humid air is significantly different - is wrong. I thought the specific heat capacity of water vapor was 1.996Kj/kg K and the specific heat capacity of dry air at surface temperatures was 1.005kj/kg K? |
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Post by matt on Oct 11, 2010 20:46:37 GMT
Your "observation" was about a time-limited regional condition. It has zero bearing on the long-term global condition. Your original question was: "Then why are we having record high temperatures? Add a little more chill and we still have near record high temperatures."
This is a time limited question. 'we still have' I pointed out that with a drier atmosphere you can get high air temperatures for less heat energy I then showed you a satellite loop from GOES East showing - admittedly only a 1/3 of the atmosphere - was notably DRY allowing the current higher temperatures for less energy. Unfortunately, AG W has hitched its wagon to atmospheric temperature which is the incorrect metric for Earth's energy budget. That is the reason for the thread - read the title again. Wrong. We have had record high temperatures for 12 years. We are talking about climate, so your bringing up weather is inappropriate. |
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Post by northsphinx on Oct 11, 2010 21:32:40 GMT
I must quote glc here: "you can read too much into GLOBAL averages " Wise words.  |
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Post by glc on Oct 11, 2010 22:18:03 GMT
I must quote glc here:
"you can read too much into GLOBAL averages "
But you haven't quoted me. You have not only misquoted me but have also deliberately misinterpreted what I actually said - which was:
"I don't think you can read too much into GLOBAL averages here".
Meaning that the use of GLOBAL (rather than hemispheric) averages in the particular case being discussed was inappropriate. Global averages were irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. I suspect you have realised this and simply shifted the argument.
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Post by sigurdur on Oct 12, 2010 2:06:22 GMT
Your original question was: "Then why are we having record high temperatures? Add a little more chill and we still have near record high temperatures."
This is a time limited question. 'we still have' I pointed out that with a drier atmosphere you can get high air temperatures for less heat energy I then showed you a satellite loop from GOES East showing - admittedly only a 1/3 of the atmosphere - was notably DRY allowing the current higher temperatures for less energy. Unfortunately, AG W has hitched its wagon to atmospheric temperature which is the incorrect metric for Earth's energy budget. That is the reason for the thread - read the title again. Wrong. We have had record high temperatures for 12 years. We are talking about climate, so your bringing up weather is inappropriate. Matt: We have NOT had "record" high temps for the past 12 years. 1998 was hot...or so some say. We have not exceeded 1998 on any credible temperature scale. A record....is........a record. There are not TWO records of the same thing. |
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Post by poitsplace on Oct 12, 2010 4:38:21 GMT
Wrong. We have had record high temperatures for 12 years. We are talking about climate, so your bringing up weather is inappropriate. The long term subsystems within the climate system that we know of generally have periods of 50+ years...the entire warming period is "weather". |
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Post by steve on Oct 12, 2010 9:28:00 GMT
I said that your conclusion - that the heat capacity of humid air is significantly different - is wrong. I thought the specific heat capacity of water vapor was 1.996Kj/kg K and the specific heat capacity of dry air at surface temperatures was 1.005kj/kg K? Icefisher, what is the difference between the heat capacity of moist tropical air and dry desert air? |
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Post by icefisher on Oct 12, 2010 9:46:44 GMT
I thought the specific heat capacity of water vapor was 1.996Kj/kg K and the specific heat capacity of dry air at surface temperatures was 1.005kj/kg K? Icefisher, what is the difference between the heat capacity of moist tropical air and dry desert air? Not the same? What percentage of atmospheric heat represents the entire warming of the industrial age? |
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Post by matt on Oct 12, 2010 16:07:12 GMT
Matt: We have NOT had "record" high temps for the past 12 years. 1998 was hot...or so some say. We have not exceeded 1998 on any credible temperature scale. A record....is........a record. There are not TWO records of the same thing. 2005 was a record year and 2009/2010 contained a record 12 months of heat. |
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