|
Post by thermostat on Jun 1, 2011 1:36:26 GMT
I have gotttttttttt to start saving the papers/articles I read. Do a search using Shindell......Schmidt........ There was a paper/article just published lately about this. In fact, there are several. sigurdur, I understand bro, I deal with the same thing. fair enough.
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 1, 2011 3:06:10 GMT
Forum members,
Do you agree that human activity has been changing the planet?
Or not?
|
|
|
Post by magellan on Jun 1, 2011 4:31:18 GMT
Forum members, Do you agree that human activity has been changing the planet? Or not? Do you still beat your wife? Why do you insist on these lines of questioning? It is a logical fallacy.
|
|
|
Post by richard on Jun 1, 2011 5:22:46 GMT
Forum members, Do you agree that human activity has been changing the planet? Or not? Do you still beat your wife? Why do you insist on these lines of questioning? It is a logical fallacy. No, it is a straightforward question totally unlike "Do you still beat your wife" The answer is obvious. Mankind is changing the planet tremendously.
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 2, 2011 16:19:35 GMT
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 2, 2011 16:28:50 GMT
The Economist has a general article on The Anthropocene A man-made world. May 26th 2011. www.economist.com/node/18741749One interesting comment states, ... "The term “paradigm shift” is bandied around with promiscuous ease. But for the natural sciences to make human activity central to its conception of the world, rather than a distraction, would mark such a shift for real. For centuries, science has progressed by making people peripheral."...
|
|
|
Post by AstroMet on Jun 2, 2011 19:35:42 GMT
Forum members, Do you agree that human activity has been changing the planet? Or not? Tstat, humanity lives on Earth. It is our home, so of course we are changing, we are evolving as a species. However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather. That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever. Why is it so difficult for you to see that humanity is natural to Earth?
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 2, 2011 22:42:31 GMT
Forum members, Do you agree that human activity has been changing the planet? Or not? Tstat, humanity lives on Earth. It is our home, so of course we are changing, we are evolving as a species. However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather. That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever. Why is it so difficult for you to see that humanity is natural to Earth? astromet, Your argument is not logical when you state, "However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather." Your assertion is not substantiated by credible evidence, to begin with, but more significantly is a logical fallacy. Logically, either humans can or they cannot alter climate. Do observed human activities have the potential to alter climate? If human activities even have a remote possibility of altering climate, than your absolutist assertion is illogical. To make your claim you would need to provide irrefutable evidence that human impact is impossible. On the contrary, it is well established that humans are altering atmospheric chemistry by releasing large amounts of green house gasses and other substances into the atmosphere, and are also altering geophysics by activities that change the cycling of elements in the earth system and land use. If scientific understanding of these sciences is in any way correct, than humans are doing exacly what you assert is not possible; or at the very least, such effects are plausible. (See, for example, in the recent publication by the UK's Royal Society, "Climate change: A Summary of the Science" 2010 royalsociety.org/climate-change-summary-of-science/ ) After many years of serious investigation, scientists agree, human activities, far from mearly having some potential ability to alter climate, are very likely to bo doing just that. Your other assertion, "That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever." is not supported by science. This subject has been hashed and rehashed in the literature. There is no credible evidence to support it and a body of evidence to refute it. There are two key elements in the climate system, the input and the output. Human activity is changing the output, altering the system, while input from the sun cycles along in its usual manner.
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 2, 2011 23:33:33 GMT
Forum members, Do you agree that human activity has been changing the planet? Or not? Tstat, humanity lives on Earth. It is our home, so of course we are changing, we are evolving as a species. However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather. That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever. Why is it so difficult for you to see that humanity is natural to Earth? astromet wrote, "However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather." One obvious example of how humans have changed the weather is the phenomenon of urban heat islands.
|
|
|
Post by AstroMet on Jun 2, 2011 23:52:36 GMT
Tstat, humanity lives on Earth. It is our home, so of course we are changing, we are evolving as a species. However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather. That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever. Why is it so difficult for you to see that humanity is natural to Earth? astromet, Your argument is not logical when you state, "However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather." Your assertion is not substantiated by credible evidence, to begin with, but more significantly is a logical fallacy. Logically, either humans can or they cannot alter climate. Do observed human activities have the potential to alter climate? If human activities even have a remote possibility of altering climate, than your absolutist assertion is illogical. To make your claim you would need to provide irrefutable evidence that human impact is impossible. On the contrary, it is well established that humans are altering atmospheric chemistry by releasing large amounts of green house gasses and other substances into the atmosphere, and are also altering geophysics by activities that change the cycling of elements in the earth system and land use. If scientific understanding of these sciences is in any way correct, than humans are doing exacly what you assert is not possible; or at the very least, such effects are plausible. (See, for example, in the recent publication by the UK's Royal Society, "Climate change: A Summary of the Science" 2010 royalsociety.org/climate-change-summary-of-science/ ) After many years of serious investigation, scientists agree, human activities, far from mearly having some potential ability to alter climate, are very likely to bo doing just that. Your other assertion, "That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever." is not supported by science. This subject has been hashed and rehashed in the literature. There is no credible evidence to support it and a body of evidence to refute it. There are two key elements in the climate system, the input and the output. Human activity is changing the output, altering the system, while input from the sun cycles along in its usual manner. Human activity does not 'change the output.' Tstat, the Earth's climate shifts and changes according to the activity of the Sun and always has. Humanity has nothing to do with it at all. We survive off the Sun's direct causation, forcing and regulation of the Earth's climate and humans always have. We cannot change the climate, nor has anyone shown conclusively how we are able to do so without violating the laws of physics. Nothing has changed. The Sun continues to force all climate change on Earth and the other planets in our solar system. Humanity has never altered the planetary climate. We cannot control the weather, nor the climate. Only the Sun is capable of this feat.
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 3, 2011 1:39:10 GMT
astromet, Your argument is not logical when you state, "However, we cannot change the planetary climate, nor the weather." Your assertion is not substantiated by credible evidence, to begin with, but more significantly is a logical fallacy. Logically, either humans can or they cannot alter climate. Do observed human activities have the potential to alter climate? If human activities even have a remote possibility of altering climate, than your absolutist assertion is illogical. To make your claim you would need to provide irrefutable evidence that human impact is impossible. On the contrary, it is well established that humans are altering atmospheric chemistry by releasing large amounts of green house gasses and other substances into the atmosphere, and are also altering geophysics by activities that change the cycling of elements in the earth system and land use. If scientific understanding of these sciences is in any way correct, than humans are doing exacly what you assert is not possible; or at the very least, such effects are plausible. (See, for example, in the recent publication by the UK's Royal Society, "Climate change: A Summary of the Science" 2010 royalsociety.org/climate-change-summary-of-science/ ) After many years of serious investigation, scientists agree, human activities, far from mearly having some potential ability to alter climate, are very likely to bo doing just that. Your other assertion, "That is done very effectively by the Sun, which causes, drives and regulates all climate changes on Earth. Humanity has nothing to do with these shifts. We cannot change the climate nor the weather as the Sun does this without our help whatsoever." is not supported by science. This subject has been hashed and rehashed in the literature. There is no credible evidence to support it and a body of evidence to refute it. There are two key elements in the climate system, the input and the output. Human activity is changing the output, altering the system, while input from the sun cycles along in its usual manner. Human activity does not 'change the output.' Tstat, the Earth's climate shifts and changes according to the activity of the Sun and always has. Humanity has nothing to do with it at all. We survive off the Sun's direct causation, forcing and regulation of the Earth's climate and humans always have. We cannot change the climate, nor has anyone shown conclusively how we are able to do so without violating the laws of physics. Nothing has changed. The Sun continues to force all climate change on Earth and the other planets in our solar system. Humanity has never altered the planetary climate. We cannot control the weather, nor the climate. Only the Sun is capable of this feat. astromet, It seems that you don't understand my reference to input and output. Heat comes into the earth system from the sun, input, and it departs, dependent on various mechanisms such as the green house effect, output. By altering the green house effect, human activity changes 'output'.
|
|
|
Post by AstroMet on Jun 3, 2011 1:49:46 GMT
Human activity does not 'change the output.' Tstat, the Earth's climate shifts and changes according to the activity of the Sun and always has. Humanity has nothing to do with it at all. We survive off the Sun's direct causation, forcing and regulation of the Earth's climate and humans always have. We cannot change the climate, nor has anyone shown conclusively how we are able to do so without violating the laws of physics. Nothing has changed. The Sun continues to force all climate change on Earth and the other planets in our solar system. Humanity has never altered the planetary climate. We cannot control the weather, nor the climate. Only the Sun is capable of this feat. astromet, It seems that you don't understand my reference to input and output. Heat comes into the earth system from the sun, input, and it departs, dependent on various mechanisms such as the green house effect, output. By altering the green house effect, human activity changes 'output'. Doesn't work that way kiddo. Human activity - every single person on this planet - cannot change the Sun's direct forcing of the Earth's climate. Moreover, the 'greenhouse effect' cannot exist on a planetary scale on Earth as it is mathematically impossible according to the laws of thermodynamics.
|
|
|
Post by magellan on Jun 3, 2011 2:00:28 GMT
Human activity does not 'change the output.' Tstat, the Earth's climate shifts and changes according to the activity of the Sun and always has. Humanity has nothing to do with it at all. We survive off the Sun's direct causation, forcing and regulation of the Earth's climate and humans always have. We cannot change the climate, nor has anyone shown conclusively how we are able to do so without violating the laws of physics. Nothing has changed. The Sun continues to force all climate change on Earth and the other planets in our solar system. Humanity has never altered the planetary climate. We cannot control the weather, nor the climate. Only the Sun is capable of this feat. astromet, It seems that you don't understand my reference to input and output. Heat comes into the earth system from the sun, input, and it departs, dependent on various mechanisms such as the green house effect, output. By altering the green house effect, human activity changes 'output'. What has a larger effect, clouds or "greenhouse gases"?
|
|
|
Post by thermostat on Jun 3, 2011 2:13:15 GMT
astromet, It seems that you don't understand my reference to input and output. Heat comes into the earth system from the sun, input, and it departs, dependent on various mechanisms such as the green house effect, output. By altering the green house effect, human activity changes 'output'. What has a larger effect, clouds or "greenhouse gases"? Magellan, good to hear from you. Interesting question. Right now the science says greenhouse gasses. The effects of clouds are an issue, as described in the Royal Society report I linked in my post above.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Jun 3, 2011 2:28:01 GMT
magellan: I have to go with clouds. When you have cloudless days over water, that water absorbs virtually allll of the LW radiation. And then it stores it. I think that is what happened to cause part of the increase in temp prior to 1998. (Since 1998 till present the trend is flat). Clearer skies......more LW being absorbed....a huge heat sink that is now expressing that heat. We all know water doesn't warm and cool at the drop of a hat.
|
|