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Post by nautonnier on Feb 13, 2017 12:41:56 GMT
Yes, there is some argument on whether CO2 molecules stay excited long enough to exchange energy with O2, N2, molecules by collision or if they literally just 'scatter' the infrared. But they do not absorb and 'trap' infrared. Water does absorb the heat energy and if it gets enough will change state from ice to liquid or liquid to vapor but it will still retain that heat and only give it up on changing back to liquid or ice.
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Post by acidohm on Feb 13, 2017 13:19:16 GMT
Thankyou very much...
It's hard getting ones head around this but so helpful to have good answers!!
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 13, 2017 14:50:17 GMT
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Post by nautonnier on Feb 13, 2017 15:32:40 GMT
Was this 'cunning plan' put forward by Tim Flannery fresh from his success with desalination plants because of the permanent drought in Queensland that are now in mothballs? The taxpayers in QLD are still paying for them though.
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Post by graywolf on Feb 13, 2017 15:57:06 GMT
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Post by missouriboy on Feb 13, 2017 17:29:02 GMT
Does the insanity never end? Somebody needs to shut down the candy factory.
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 13, 2017 18:09:43 GMT
Agree. This just keeps getting nuttier and nuttier. I know the folks who push AGW so hard really think they are saving humanity. Their grasp of past climate is so bereft of knowledge it is mind numbing.
Climate changes. Is man responsible for "part" of said change? Yes. Has the change been bad? NO.
Climate change is ONE of the main drivers of increased, and reliable, food production world wide.
With the change to unreliable electricity, it is costing everyone more. There is economic opportunity being squandered rapidly because of the cronyism of the AGW trade.
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Post by Ratty on Feb 14, 2017 0:22:47 GMT
Was this 'cunning plan' put forward by Tim Flannery fresh from his success with desalination plants because of the permanent drought in Queensland that are now in mothballs? The taxpayers in QLD are still paying for them though. We shifted down closer to Tugun so we could be sure of our water supply ...... Minister says desalination plant a $15m per year insurance policy against droughtIf Our Tim was involved, the Arctic Solution would involve huge airconditioners to lower the temperature.
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Post by graywolf on Feb 14, 2017 10:35:21 GMT
Our current attempt at climate modification ain't going too well so I'd have to advise agin it!!! We're still not above 13.5 million yet. Whilst we were bust watching Sept mins we should have been keeping half an eye on the March Max figures ( or late Feb as it appears to want to be?) as max's slipped from 16 million down to sub 14 million. We know we have poleward movement of heat with the Tropics marching North/South and the oceans 10c isotherm shifting poleward ( along with the cold water fish species) so what happens to max ice once 10c is battering at Fram/Bering's door? Well it doesn't need to be the 10c isotherm, the 3c isotherm would do! Then I look at SST's in Barentsz and what do I see? All this may well be immaterial with this recent expansion of total pricipital moisture of the troposphere now extending right up to the tropopause near doubling the heat that has been rolling into the basin this past 14 months and holding that heat up against the ice ( as opposed to flooding the strat/mesosphere with excess heat) as upper atmosphere soundings show us. I would favour an increased heat flow up into the Strat as this would go some way to providing us with a mechanism supporting the odd strat behaviours over the period of increased heat transport into the basin? It would also go some way into explaining the increased occurrence of gravity waves we have been photographing in the mesosphere?( top of Strat , base of mesosphere) ? Up until ice min 2015 I thought we were dealing with a stepped reduction in summer ice cover ( along with continued thinning?) leaving it vulnerable to exceptional melt forcings like we saw in 2007? Now I realise that the condition the ice enters melt season in sets up the losses for that year? We saw a very poor summer for melt still provide enough energy for us to see extent make joint second ( area was far worse with NSIDC posting a figure not far above the record 2012 area???) with only a few weeks now before we see ice max we can look at how the ice has done over the winter past. FDD's are far less than this time last year and volume is record low ( along with area and extent) so we can say that ice is entering into the melt season of 2017 in the worse state ever measured. For a decade I have been cautioning that any return to the 'Perfect melt storm' synoptic would spell end game for the ice. This year I would caution that any return of the Perfect Melt storm could see ice melted out before August and giving a long time of some regions to sit soaking up solar ( Barentsz/Kara/Baffin/Beaufort/ESS/Greenland and Okhotsk) locking in big climatic problems for the Northern Hemisphere as we turn toward Autumn and winter. If we thought 5 months of snow over October in western Siberia drove issues in the areas around it this time around what would doubling that snow area do for those regions ( as far away as Sahara/U.A.E./Greece/Turkey/Spain and through Asia into the N.Pacific) especially if low solar forcing for the Atlantic coasts of Europe is ramped up further a we move toward solar min? The UK has got off very lightly this winter with pretty benign, mild weathers predominating ( the first Mail/Express reports of a 'worst winter in....." in August 2016 put paid to any chances of a cold ,snowy winter!!!) but I feel that our experiences at the end of the noughties ( and the next few years into the teens) are about to be repeated with the Solar forcing looking like low sea ice augments its impacts? If we do see a massive dumping around Arctic Ocean Coasts then any low ice forcing on the PV ( failure to form over Autumn/Early winter ) will lead to early cold plunges possibly locking in a long cold winter by putting early deep snow on the ground?
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Post by Ratty on Feb 14, 2017 11:22:14 GMT
Our current attempt at climate modification ain't going too well so I'd have to advise agin it!!! [ Snip ] Meaning wind and solar, GW?
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Post by graywolf on Feb 14, 2017 12:12:10 GMT
Yup rats we've dimmed out the sun and messed up the Jet streams!
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Post by nautonnier on Feb 14, 2017 12:33:45 GMT
Yup rats we've dimmed out the sun and messed up the Jet streams! A little bit of hubris there GW BTW global dimming was the reason given for the panic back in the 70s that we were about to have a new glacial. Now the amount of pollution is hugely less than it was and yet it still has the power to overwhelm the magic CO2 molecule? Whatever it is - it's all our fault and can be cured by paying more tax to politicians.
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Post by graywolf on Feb 14, 2017 13:11:06 GMT
Dimming doesn't 'over power' CO2 it just gives it nothing to work with?
If we are losing 50% of possible warming to dimming , as NASA worked out in the mid noughties, then we should be sat at 2c above pre -industrial right now and not just 1c.
Dimming can drop out really quickly, compared to the lifetime of a CO2 molecule in the atmosphere, so we should expect to see near instant temp adjustments upward as more and more of the energy (that currently does not get further than the upper atmosphere) reaches the surface and is re-emitted in a form that CO2 can work with?
We had begun to see the benefits of our western clean air acts back in the 80's but then Asia's rapid industrialisation , using the dirtiest of coals, reversed that trend through the late 90's/noughties. We are now seeing global temps on the up and up even without the help of Nino ( as OZZ is showing us presently!) so maybe China's rapid shift to clean up its cities street level pollution is having a far greater impact than we thought? Let us watch the monthly global temps this year? We have already seen the Nina impacts fall away in October so will we be challenging 2nd highest globally this year or will we see a Nino form up and boost the 2nd half of the year?
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 14, 2017 14:22:14 GMT
Remember the Holocene climate optimum. Do the snow events "down south" portend the beginning of the return of the Sahara being a fertile grassland?
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Post by acidohm on Feb 14, 2017 18:46:04 GMT
Dimming doesn't 'over power' CO2 it just gives it nothing to work with? If we are losing 50% of possible warming to dimming , as NASA worked out in the mid noughties, then we should be sat at 2c above pre -industrial right now and not just 1c. 1°c....if correct, is how IPCC put it?? At least 50% due to natural variability?? I'm not sure the world will end because humans added as much as 0.5°c warming over 50 plus years. This also means all the effects you describe are at least 50% due to natural variability, which has demonstrably exceeded these temps in the past?? If you want dimming...check out the clouds...have you any idea as to the proportion of human dimming and cloud cover?? (I don't!! BTW. ...human dimming....something I see everyday on the you tube rubbish I stop my children from watching 😝)
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