|
Post by sigurdur on Aug 17, 2014 2:48:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by flearider on Aug 17, 2014 8:02:21 GMT
in a democratic system the rich lobby/buy the system and the poor get poorer and made into slaves .. as soon as you let your politician take legal bribes it is no longer a democratic system
|
|
|
Post by walnut on Aug 17, 2014 13:23:12 GMT
As soon as the indolent poor realize that they can vote money directly from the productive right into their own pockets, they become organized and democracy fails. Democracy worked when most were productive. Maybe not now.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Aug 17, 2014 14:41:57 GMT
The USA is a Republic and not a Democracy.
What I see as a failure is that folks no longer will move to where the work is. North Dakota still has 25,000+ jobs that are unfilled. People seem to think that they have this "right" to stay planted in one spot and business will move jobs to them. That isn't how it works in the real world.
We have had mass migrations during other times of lower economic growth. Dust bowl 30's is an example.
Also, because of Govt loans, grants etc, a college education has become out of touch for a lot of bright talented people. When I was going to college, you could work your way through. Not any longer is this possible. Colleges/Universities are like anything else. They will try and raise the cost to the point of resistance.
Also, the plumbers/elec/welders etc are not looked upon as viable trades, when in fact, these are the MOST viable trades.
The whole system has gotten skewed because of Govt monies.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Aug 17, 2014 14:43:24 GMT
What concerns me is the potential for violence from citizens who feel the police no longer protect and serve with the resulting blowback from police. If the country moves down that road I for one will take my family on a extended vacation. Sig, if you get a chance you should try and find a copy of "Twilight of Authority" by Robert Nisbet: Albert Schweitzer Professor in the Humanities at Columbia University. ISBN 0-19-502177-0 Professor Nisbet, with respect to Thomas Piketty and his thoughts on wealth distribution in "Capital in the Twenty-first Century", make me wonder if a democratic system is compatible with "distributive wealth conflict". I will keep this book in mind Code. For the next few months I won't have time to read many books. Harvest/prep/etc ramps up on Monday on my farm.
|
|
|
Post by glennkoks on Aug 17, 2014 14:44:17 GMT
As soon as the indolent poor realize that they can vote money directly from the productive right into their own pockets, they become organized and democracy fails. Democracy worked when most were productive. Maybe not now. Guys, I don't really share the pessimism. I travel all over this country for work and everywhere I go I see hard working people that pretty much want the same things. Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican most people I run into want a decent quality of life, a good education for their kids and a little nest egg for retirement. The rise of the mega-corporation and the amount of power they now wield is a disturbing trend that is inversely correlated to the health of our middle class. This is clearly illustrated by the gap between the average worker salary and executive compensation. The Citizens vs. United Supreme Court decision has just increased the amount of money available to candidates running for public office exponentially which places even more power in the hands of corporations. The Goldman Sachs and the JP Morgan Chase's of the world give generously to both political parties and one of the main reasons why the Keystone pipeline has met a brick wall is not Obama. It's Berkshire Hathaway and the fact that they are making a fortune hauling oil by tanker car from the Bakken shale. Environmentalists are just a "pawn" in the game.
|
|
|
Post by walnut on Aug 17, 2014 19:33:48 GMT
I am optimistic, but only at a regional level. Anything that rises to a national level quickly becomes something like a comedy of errors, or a kangaroo court. I really think that this "nation" might have grown too large to manage. Break up. Scotland has it right.
|
|
|
Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 1:56:43 GMT
I am optimistic, but only at a regional level. Anything that rises to a national level quickly becomes something like a comedy of errors, or a kangaroo court. I really think that this "nation" might have grown too large to manage. Break up. Scotland has it right. As I have said before it is like both EUs (Etats Uni and European Union) are following the same script. Unchecked and often illegal immigration is top news in both UK and US. In the USA all they need to do is follow The Constitution, instead of trying to avoid doing so or get legislation from the bench to bend it for the profit and power normally of Progressives. But we have a president who appears to think checks and balances are something to do with banking. In particular The 10th Amendment - enumerated powers ( yes its a good idea, but you are only the Federal government it is NOT YOUR JOB persuade your State's governor) the 14th Amendment (the phrase "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" has been forgotten and needs to be re-emphasised doing that will suddenly remove all the anchor babies - there is a thriving trade in pregnant Chinese women having their childreen in the USA thanks to the softening of the 14th Amendment) and the 17th Amendment should be Amended out (so that Senators are nominated by the State legislatures - this was more damage from the Progressives). In the UK we have a weak prime minister incapable of keeping promises with an even weaker lame duck Liberal deputy PM and for Labour we have Wallace without a grommet. So I can understand the Scots being less than impressed, but they actually have won on the Union. They get more taxpayer support than the other countries in the Union (free old people's homes, free university education all funded by the other countries in the Union), they get to vote on English laws but the English cannot vote on Scots laws (the West Lothian Question). To give that up and have Salmond 'in charge' when he doesn't know what currency they'll have or whether Scotland will be (un)able to (re)join Europe. And all that at a time when the (claimed) Scots oil is running out but they've got lots of wind farms subsidy farms but no money to pay the subsidies. If the Scots vote for independence I can see the old Kingdom of Cait - Caithness, Orkney, Shetland voting for their own independence or even joining Norway - and bang goes a huge amount of the remaining 'Scottish Oil'. It is strange that political upheaval always seems to come at the time of a quiet Sun.
|
|
|
Post by glennkoks on Aug 18, 2014 6:38:21 GMT
Guys, I don't really share the pessimism. I travel all over this country for work and everywhere I go I see hard working people that pretty much want the same things. Liberal or Conservative, Democrat or Republican most people I run into want a decent quality of life, a good education for their kids and a little nest egg for retirement. The rise of the mega-corporation and the amount of power they now wield is a disturbing trend that is inversely correlated to the health of our middle class. This is clearly illustrated by the gap between the average worker salary and executive compensation. The Citizens vs. United Supreme Court decision has just increased the amount of money available to candidates running for public office exponentially which places even more power in the hands of corporations. The Goldman Sachs and the JP Morgan Chase's of the world give generously to both political parties and one of the main reasons why the Keystone pipeline has met a brick wall is not Obama. It's Berkshire Hathaway and the fact that they are making a fortune hauling oil by tanker car from the Bakken shale. Environmentalists are just a "pawn" in the game. Your comment is optimistic? We have issues and disturbing trends. But we have been through much worse before. Everything were going through now pales in comparison to what our founding fathers went through. Signing the Declaration of Independence was tantamount to signing your own death warrant. Does anyone think we are in darker times or have bigger issues than we did in 1865? We are highly polarized but we are not killing one another and half of our states have not went AWOL. The Great Recession was rough but not many went "hungry" in this nation, the banking system did not collapse and 2007-2009 was cakewalk compared to 1929-1931. Do the conflicts in the Ukraine, Gaza and Syria hold a candle to what Imperial Japan was doing in Manchuria, Italy was doing in Ethiopia or Hitler was doing all over Europe in the 1930's? I'm not making light of our issues. But when you compare them to some of the other periods and events we made it through it's not that bad. Our debt has been worse and political turmoil around the world has been much worse. I see nothing that cannot be fixed. It just takes a leader.
|
|
|
Post by Ratty on Aug 18, 2014 12:25:52 GMT
I am optimistic, but only at a regional level. Anything that rises to a national level quickly becomes something like a comedy of errors, or a kangaroo court. I really think that this "nation" might have grown too large to manage. Break up. Scotland has it right. I didn't realise the extent of the problem and have removed my offensive "kangaroo court" post.
|
|
|
Post by walnut on Aug 18, 2014 14:01:18 GMT
The stock market seems to agree with your assessment. Still, I think that we are gradually headed down hill. Maybe we are entering a "cultural dark age" at about the same time we are entering a new Maunder Minimum. We even have a plague to complete the scenario. All we need now are wheat crop failures in the cold wet spring. Your comment is optimistic? We have issues and disturbing trends. But we have been through much worse before. Everything were going through now pales in comparison to what our founding fathers went through. Signing the Declaration of Independence was tantamount to signing your own death warrant. Does anyone think we are in darker times or have bigger issues than we did in 1865? We are highly polarized but we are not killing one another and half of our states have not went AWOL. The Great Recession was rough but not many went "hungry" in this nation, the banking system did not collapse and 2007-2009 was cakewalk compared to 1929-1931. Do the conflicts in the Ukraine, Gaza and Syria hold a candle to what Imperial Japan was doing in Manchuria, Italy was doing in Ethiopia or Hitler was doing all over Europe in the 1930's? I'm not making light of our issues. But when you compare them to some of the other periods and events we made it through it's not that bad. Our debt has been worse and political turmoil around the world has been much worse. I see nothing that cannot be fixed. It just takes a leader.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Aug 18, 2014 17:27:58 GMT
|
|
|
Post by glennkoks on Aug 20, 2014 2:36:17 GMT
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Aug 20, 2014 13:22:12 GMT
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Aug 20, 2014 21:21:29 GMT
|
|