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Post by walnut on Dec 11, 2014 2:57:04 GMT
I saw a kid forced to spend the night in a foxhole with 6" of icewater. When I found him, he was mumbling "can't move". We called a medic helicopter, they put the shockers on him and saved his life. a few hours later he was back in the field. That is just the tip of the iceburg. I won't bore you with more stories but I don't care if the CIA upset a few guys who are not even honorable enemies, men who hide behind women and children. No fingernails were removed, no arms broken.
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Post by walnut on Dec 11, 2014 2:58:40 GMT
We will never again win a war against a serious enemy, I am sure of that.
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Post by magellan on Dec 11, 2014 3:04:41 GMT
I saw a kid forced to spend the night in a foxhole with 6" of icewater. When I found him, he was mumbling "can't move". We called a medic helicopter, they put the shockers on him and saved his life. a few hours later he was back in the field. That is just the tip of the iceburg. I won't bore you with more stories but I don't care if the CIA upset a few guys who are not even honorable enemies, men who hide behind women and children. No fingernails were removed, no arms broken. Don't you think though that forcing someone to listen to the Bee Gees for 30 hours straight is a bit over the top?
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Post by magellan on Dec 11, 2014 3:05:25 GMT
We will never again win a war against a serious enemy, I am sure of that. No doubt.
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Post by glennkoks on Dec 11, 2014 3:25:09 GMT
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Franklin's Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775 Magellan, Just how much torture, mayhem and murder are you advocating in the name of justice? During WWII we were fighting the military of a foreign nation. They wore a uniform, gave no quarter and expected none. Terrorists do not wear a uniform. Rounding up the usual civilian suspects and torturing them until they talk is not my view of what I want for this nation. Explain how terrorists are giving up essential liberty and what rights they have to begin with. They are not covered by the Geneva Convention or any other convention precisely because they don't wear uniforms. In WWII "civilians" were executed for aiding and abetting the enemy. Germany sent saboteurs to America, not in uniform; looked like any other American. Eight were executed. Ever read about the Revolutionary War? Apparently not. As walnut stated, soldiers are put through more "torture" than these scumbags you are defending. Feinstein and her ilk are the sames that defended the procedure in the video below, and the ones that are still legal for killing ~1 million of the most innocent among us. Obama did not vote for a bill when Senator that protected surviving babies from botched abortions. And you're concerned about making life a bit uncomfortable for a few human debris that would not blink an eye sawing off the head of your family. The Constitution as I read it states that: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." The key words are "all men are created equal". It does not say "American's Only" or only those wearing military uniforms. And I am curious. Who decides just whom gets a fair trial? Who does not? and who deserves torture?
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Post by glennkoks on Dec 11, 2014 3:33:31 GMT
Magellan,
Personally I fear any covert police force ignoring our laws, acting on their own and lying to Congress much more than I fear a few people running around in the sand making threats at the Great Satan.
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 11, 2014 3:56:45 GMT
Pardon me for invoking Godwin's Law but IMHO the CIA acted like the Gestapo. Lost in the eagerness to get intelligence we ignored our own laws that separate us from them. In addition to acting like Himmler's hit squad the CIA lied to Congress. We have to be extremely cautious of any clandestine organization that ignores and lies to Congress and uses techniques like "torture". Were better than that. How many lives do you suppose Himmler's hit squad saved? This isn't news. This was just another Democrat "hit squad" by FrankenFeinstein @ co. saved for an appropriate time to use as another distraction (and against her enemies in the CIA) and only places the country at more risk. They didn't interview one CIA operative during their "investigation" and they had oversight of the the CIA during that entire time yet didn't debrief the CIA director. Of course, using the IRS/EPA/NSA et al to target political enemies is fine. Leaving Americans to die at Benghazi, that's ok too. Gun running to Mexico.....how many died from that? Those Drone strikes sure don't torture anyone. All this self-righteous talk that "we're better than that".....yeah ok. If your daughter were kidnapped and you had one of the scum that did it and he had information, of course you wouldn't do any sort of "torture" now would you? Oh no, you're better than that. Personally, I'd beat the living *hit of them until they talked. Oh no, you'd never do that. Obama gets in front of a camera and lies straight in the faces of Americans. In fact, Obama has been lying since his first day in office, blatantly violates the Constitution, breaks laws, makes laws that don't exist, tells his minions to punish his enemies and you think he's just another guy in the White House. If any president is deserving of impeachment it is him. His AG should be in prison. Why isn't Lois Lerner in jail? Magellan: I can't give too much away here, but torture doesn't produce credible intel.
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Post by Ratty on Dec 11, 2014 9:55:25 GMT
[ Snip ] Magellan: I can't give too much away here, but torture doesn't produce credible intel. Sig, I've always suspected that you were CIA .....
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 11, 2014 13:10:24 GMT
[ Snip ] Magellan: I can't give too much away here, but torture doesn't produce credible intel. Sig, I've always suspected that you were CIA ..... Amazing what a clean cut Midwest boy can get involved in.
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Post by nautonnier on Dec 11, 2014 20:04:14 GMT
walnut, Did you endure water boarding in your training with the 101st? Rectal Feeding? Personally I do not see this as "liberal hand wringing". I do not want any authorized police agency endorsing torture and lying to Congress. The methods were all told to Congress including the Senators that are now trying to wash their hands of their own involvement. Thanks to the lack of any successful terrorist attacks on the USA, people are reverting to the unpreparedness and soft posture of September 10th and wracked with guilt about taking the actions that were deemed necessary by everyone on September 12th. The problem with this is that terrorists live on _terror_ in the target population so that they can force them to lose their own liberties to protect against the threat. As this seems to be fading, and the current Administration cares little for security or the armed forces, I would expect another 9/11 or better in the next 18 months. Then everyone will be saying "why didn't the CIA/FBI/DHS join up the dots? Why didn't the CIA talk to the Administration? Round the loop again...
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Post by scpg02 on Dec 11, 2014 20:11:58 GMT
walnut, Did you endure water boarding in your training with the 101st? Rectal Feeding? Personally I do not see this as "liberal hand wringing". I do not want any authorized police agency endorsing torture and lying to Congress. The methods were all told to Congress including the Senators that are now trying to wash their hands of their own involvement. Thanks to the lack of any successful terrorist attacks on the USA, people are reverting to the unpreparedness and soft posture of September 10th and wracked with guilt about taking the actions that were deemed necessary by everyone on September 12th. The problem with this is that terrorists live on _terror_ in the target population so that they can force them to lose their own liberties to protect against the threat. As this seems to be fading, and the current Administration cares little for security or the armed forces, I would expect another 9/11 or better in the next 18 months. Then everyone will be saying "why didn't the CIA/FBI/DHS join up the dots? Why didn't the CIA talk to the Administration? Round the loop again... What is going to happen and when is greatly dependent on who has been selected to be our next president.
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Post by walnut on Dec 11, 2014 20:46:01 GMT
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 11, 2014 22:00:44 GMT
It was learned during WWII that harsh interrogation produced worthless Intel. This was further confirmed during Vietnam. Torture someone and they tell you what you WANT to hear.
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Post by walnut on Dec 11, 2014 22:53:42 GMT
You might well be correct, I don't know. The CIA apparently would have disagreed at that time. But the main premise of the liberal outrage after the report is that the US acted wrongly, not that the measurable quality of their work was poor, although that was mentioned too.
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 12, 2014 2:08:02 GMT
You might well be correct, I don't know. The CIA apparently would have disagreed at that time. But the main premise of the liberal outrage after the report is that the US acted wrongly, not that the measurable quality of their work was poor, although that was mentioned too. When you torture someone, they will tell you 2+2=5 if that is what you want to hear. Torture just does NOT produce credible intel.
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