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Post by missouriboy on Oct 20, 2015 22:41:02 GMT
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Post by sigurdur on Oct 20, 2015 23:51:29 GMT
Yeah, there is a lot of stuff in there that will have you scratching your head, I agree. I admit I didn't finish it. But there might be some overlooked truths, too. The indians looked at the Europeans as the savages, who didn't know how to wage a "civilized" war. An epitaph on one of the larger tombstones in the Skullyville Oklahoma cemetery reads in all capital letters: A tribute to the natives of many tribes of this hemisphere. We knew God and knew He was the Creator of all creation. Our blessed Father sayeth the Lord. I will put my laws into their mind and write them in their hearts. We knew God’s laws and kept God’s commandments. We never were savages, cruel, brutal, ferocious, barbarians. We knew The Truth. We lived “In order, decency, peace and freedom” until the foreigners invaded our country. David McCurtain Hartshorne I believe that he was a Choctaw chief. I can only believe that the Native Americans were not living in peace prior to the whites coming. Humans just do not live like that. Instead they seek to create hierarchies, and if you do not like the hierarchy you fight or move somewhere else. Andrew: Native Americans seldom killed their opponents. They counted coupe as a kill. The exception to this was the southwestern Tribes. The Apache and Comanche. They may have learned violence from the Spanish. Other SW Tribes used the coupe method. The NorthWestern Tribes didn't even like to fight. Cheif Joseph of the Naz Peres fled rather than fight the US Army. They forced him to fight gorrila style. He was truly an amazing man and leader.
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Post by walnut on Oct 21, 2015 1:12:01 GMT
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Post by glennkoks on Oct 21, 2015 3:48:22 GMT
I can only believe that the Native Americans were not living in peace prior to the whites coming. Humans just do not live like that. Instead they seek to create hierarchies, and if you do not like the hierarchy you fight or move somewhere else. Andrew: Native Americans seldom killed their opponents. They counted coupe as a kill. The exception to this was the southwestern Tribes. The Apache and Comanche. They may have learned violence from the Spanish. Other SW Tribes used the coupe method. The NorthWestern Tribes didn't even like to fight. Cheif Joseph of the Naz Peres fled rather than fight the US Army. They forced him to fight gorrila style. He was truly an amazing man and leader. Sigurdur, From the Steppes of Asia, to the deserts of North Africa to the Great Plains of North America there is one common denominator with most of the nomadic tribes. Violence. Wherever you see a lifestyle of "movement" for survival you will see evidence of warfare. The Bedouins, the Mongolian Horde and most if not all of the Plains Indians could be ruthless. The hunter-gatherer existence was harsh and "taking" what another tribe had was paramount to survival. Farming and a less nomadic lifestyle tends to lead to more structure, a division of labor and a need for law and order. Which leads to a more peaceful existence. Staying in one place to endure mother nature's worst winters requires strict planning and cooperation. At the equator where there are no seasons the need for planning and cooperation is minimized. Hunting and gathering in a lush tropical environment works just fine and I can sleep in. That does not work at all in colder climates. If humans can trace their roots back to the Rift Valley in Africa roughly 1.3 million years ago why did the most advanced civilizations prosper much further north where winters were much harsher? It seems there is almost a genetic predisposition to living, surviving and prospering in the Northern Latitudes.
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Post by flearider on Oct 21, 2015 7:37:52 GMT
Andrew: Native Americans seldom killed their opponents. They counted coupe as a kill. The exception to this was the southwestern Tribes. The Apache and Comanche. They may have learned violence from the Spanish. Other SW Tribes used the coupe method. The NorthWestern Tribes didn't even like to fight. Cheif Joseph of the Naz Peres fled rather than fight the US Army. They forced him to fight gorrila style. He was truly an amazing man and leader. Sigurdur, From the Steppes of Asia, to the deserts of North Africa to the Great Plains of North America there is one common denominator with most of the nomadic tribes. Violence. Wherever you see a lifestyle of "movement" for survival you will see evidence of warfare. The Bedouins, the Mongolian Horde and most if not all of the Plains Indians could be ruthless. The hunter-gatherer existence was harsh and "taking" what another tribe had was paramount to survival. Farming and a less nomadic lifestyle tends to lead to more structure, a division of labor and a need for law and order. Which leads to a more peaceful existence. Staying in one place to endure mother nature's worst winters requires strict planning and cooperation. At the equator where there are no seasons the need for planning and cooperation is minimized. Hunting and gathering in a lush tropical environment works just fine and I can sleep in. That does not work at all in colder climates. If humans can trace their roots back to the Rift Valley in Africa roughly 1.3 million years ago why did the most advanced civilizations prosper much further north where winters were much harsher? It seems there is almost a genetic predisposition to living, surviving and prospering in the Northern Latitudes. but before the whites came yeah that's us .. there would have been enough food for the way they lived there were summer places and winter places so it was just a case of moving from one to the other ..they did have certain rules when crossing borders of other tribes ..and a lot worked out there differences in sports(some what violent yes) only after we attacked them did they get pissed of and used our rules
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 21, 2015 11:28:57 GMT
Which of course is not diversity. Diversity is summed up by Martin Luther King's 'the content of their character not the color of their skin'. If the student body vote for people based on 'the content of their character' and the university decides to overrule that based on 'the color of the skin' of the elected students - don't they realize they are the ones being 'racist'? Had the student body elected all Indian students would the university have upheld or denied the results? Academics do not seem to be very intelligent these days.
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Post by Andrew on Oct 21, 2015 12:11:13 GMT
Andrew: Native Americans seldom killed their opponents. They counted coupe as a kill. The exception to this was the southwestern Tribes. The Apache and Comanche. They may have learned violence from the Spanish. Other SW Tribes used the coupe method. The NorthWestern Tribes didn't even like to fight. Cheif Joseph of the Naz Peres fled rather than fight the US Army. They forced him to fight gorrila style. He was truly an amazing man and leader. According to Wiki a warrior had to risk death or injury to count coupe but if he wanted the more prestigious eagle feather without the red he had to do it without injury which seems to me to give the warriors an incentive to create trouble to get a prestigious feather. Sounds a bit like gang patches in New Zealand where the new recruits have to go beat somebody up or steal something to get a patch. It does not sound very peaceful to me. For starters the native americans have warriors. As far as i can see on the internet there is a commonly expressed liberatarian or Christian idea that humans can live together in harmony and therefore we dont need no stinking government, when in fact hundreds of thousands of years of history says otherwise. Tellingly this forum exhibits the same striving for authority among the individual members that we see in more or less any human group.
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Post by walnut on Oct 21, 2015 12:51:33 GMT
Which of course is not diversity. Diversity is summed up by Martin Luther King's 'the content of their character not the color of their skin'. If the student body vote for people based on 'the content of their character' and the university decides to overrule that based on 'the color of the skin' of the elected students - don't they realize they are the ones being 'racist'? Had the student body elected all Indian students would the university have upheld or denied the results? Academics do not seem to be very intelligent these days. Liberals are simply obsessed with race. They will absolutely bombard us with race issues for the rest of our lives.
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Post by sigurdur on Oct 21, 2015 13:02:29 GMT
Andrew: Native Americans have a long oral history. My 1st bow was made by a Sioux Chief. My dad has participated in a funeral rite, totally. Which included the sweat lodge. I will stand by my statement regarding killing.
Currently, mankind does not live in the same environment as Native Americans did 300+ years ago. The advent of gun powder changed how war is fought. North America seemed to have a different culture in the past than other areas of the world.
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Post by walnut on Oct 21, 2015 13:09:51 GMT
I think it varied some from tribe to tribe
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Post by sigurdur on Oct 21, 2015 14:15:57 GMT
I think it varied some from tribe to tribe Yes, that is why I mentioned the SW Tribes. A lot of folks perspective comes from interaction with the settlers. Their culture changed with that interaction.
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Post by acidohm on Oct 21, 2015 16:00:27 GMT
Chimpanzees were studied by Jane goodall for something like 20 years. After this time 'her group' started conflicting with territory with another. One morning as she went to watch her usual group she found a bloodbath. Nothing short of war between the two. There have also been a case in a zoo here in the uk where a male chimp has ripped the testicles off a rival and eaten them.
My point is, as one of closet genetic relatives, if a chimp could be seen as exhibiting primitive behaviour of ourselves, it can easily be seen our genetic line holds violent tendancies.
I guess the question is whether or not we submit to them....
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Post by missouriboy on Oct 21, 2015 17:53:07 GMT
I think it varied some from tribe to tribe Yes, that is why I mentioned the SW Tribes. A lot of folks perspective comes from interaction with the settlers. Their culture changed with that interaction. Their culture did indeed change. The best available guesstimates suggest a Pre-Columbian population of perhaps 15 million in North America, concentrated largely in the east, where they had established extensive agrarian societies. We have no true historical comparison to what likely happened to these people. Perhaps, from a European perspective, a combination of the Black Death (multiplied by 2 or so) followed by a settling wave of farmers from an alien culture that swept up the remaining pieces. By the early 1700s, the eastern tribes were largely history ... at a time when Anglo settlements in the east had not yet reached 2 million. The 1980 Census listed approximately 260,000 individuals who claimed native heritage in the states east of the Mississippi River. This, of course, does not include the many of us that have a small genetic link (usually MTDNA) to the indigenous population. Like most conquering races, we tended to marry the surviving breeding stock ... particularly on the frontier. Occasionally, a little voice in the back of my head suggests that we might want to pay a little more attention to our immigration policies.
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Post by flearider on Oct 21, 2015 20:08:03 GMT
Chimpanzees were studied by Jane goodall for something like 20 years. After this time 'her group' started conflicting with territory with another. One morning as she went to watch her usual group she found a bloodbath. Nothing short of war between the two. There have also been a case in a zoo here in the uk where a male chimp has ripped the testicles off a rival and eaten them. My point is, as one of closet genetic relatives, if a chimp could be seen as exhibiting primitive behaviour of ourselves, it can easily be seen our genetic line holds violent tendancies. I guess the question is whether or not we submit to them.... not to throw a spanner in the works .. but a pig has a closer dna strand to us than a chimp .. hence we can use a pig heart for transplant but not a chimps and pigs don't normally kill each other
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Post by acidohm on Oct 21, 2015 20:24:11 GMT
I think your muddled flearider.....
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