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Post by Ufasuperstorm on Jul 28, 2014 22:42:05 GMT
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Post by cuttydyer on Jul 29, 2014 5:02:14 GMT
I like Joe Romm's take (now that the measurement has been confirmed to be accurate): “The most important thing to know about Antarctica and ice is that a large part of the South Pole’s great sheet of land ice is close to or at a point of no return for irreversible collapse,” “Only immediate action to sharply reverse CO2 emissions could stop or significantly slow that.”Joe needs to look up the definition of the word "denier".
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Post by nonentropic on Jul 29, 2014 5:46:06 GMT
and the temperature up in the north starts to drop about 40 days early. but we can all relax because the arctic temperatures are at record. "Yeh Right"
"denier" is now officially migrating to a new bunch of folk.
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Post by Ratty on Aug 1, 2014 1:44:12 GMT
Our ever-reliable ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) has come to the rescue with their Catalyst program. They explain, thru examination of methanesulfonic acid in ice cores, just how dire the situation in in the South: Catalyst, ABC1. 31st July 2014
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 1, 2014 2:11:37 GMT
Ratty: It is so nice that there have been wind monitors in Antarctica for a 1,000 years.
And I kept reading about how warm Antarctica is becoming, but every temp metric I can find shows a slight cooling.
Do you guys have a different way of measuring down under?
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Post by douglavers on Aug 1, 2014 2:13:18 GMT
A number of assertions are made.
“The westerlies exist because of the strong contrast in temperatures between the tropics and the poles. This contrast is increasing as the tropics warm faster. Adding to the effect is the huge ozone hole cooling the stratosphere above Antarctica. Although temperatures are on the rise, for the moment, the wind influence is winning.”
I was surprised to hear that the tropics were warming faster. I thought tropical average temperatures were almost invariant. I have seen graphs which suggest that Antarctica has been cooling for several decades. More likely the winds are increasing [?] because of the latter effect.
“That part of the world's oceans is warming at that level faster than anywhere else in the world. And that water is now getting under a lot of the glacier tongues around the Antarctic region and eroding what we call the grounding line where the ice tongue might be sitting. Once you erode that grounding line away, you release the brakes, as it were, and these glaciers can move very rapidly.”
I find it impossible to believe that sea ice is expanding when the surrounding ocean is warming. If it was the fresh water mentioned below, it seems unlikely that it would be sliding under the sea water to melt more ice. The latter would be at -2degC, and that lower salt content water would freeze pretty quickly. Water at -2 degC is not good at melting ice!
“The rate ice loss from glaciers on the continent has doubled since it was last surveyed to around 160 billion tonnes a year. This accelerates sea level rise.”
Apart from the inconvenient point that no acceleration of sea level rise has been seen, I would question the ice loss rate. From whence that number?
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 1, 2014 4:36:50 GMT
Doug: 160 billion tonnes of ice isn't much ice. At that rate of loss it would take 100's of millions of years to melt Antarctica.
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Post by cuttydyer on Aug 1, 2014 5:04:36 GMT
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Post by Ratty on Aug 1, 2014 6:28:30 GMT
Ratty: It is so nice that there have been wind monitors in Antarctica for a 1,000 years. And I kept reading about how warm Antarctica is becoming, but every temp metric I can find shows a slight cooling. Do you guys have a different way of measuring down under? Sig, on the anemometer question, I will have to ask the original Australians who came to these shores about 40,000 years ago (give or take) by walking from SE Asia. On temperature, the New Zealanders are closer to Antarctica than us so I would have to refer you to this paper: Little Ice Age climate and oceanic conditions of the Ross Sea, Antarctica from a coastal ice core recordOn different measurements, we are have been metricated here for quite a while. Our cricket pitches are still 22 yards, however. PS: What are you doing out of bed at this time?
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Post by icefisher on Aug 1, 2014 11:16:41 GMT
Ratty: It is so nice that there have been wind monitors in Antarctica for a 1,000 years. And I kept reading about how warm Antarctica is becoming, but every temp metric I can find shows a slight cooling. Do you guys have a different way of measuring down under? UAH shows the southern polar region to have no trend in temperature 0.00. The tropics have had a 0.07 warming. Thus the southpole trend is cooler than the tropics with more ice. Arctic warming trend according to UAH is .45. So the northpole trend is warmer than the tropics with less ice. This of course would lead any brilliant scientist to conclude man made warming causes everything! The Great Green Mannaman Al Gore causes money to rain on anybody who agrees. That of course has nothing to do with it though. After all if we are going to defy logic we should defy all logic.
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Post by Ufasuperstorm on Aug 1, 2014 18:30:09 GMT
Question for group: I ran into this "Antarctic sea ice extent is at record levels but Antarctic sea ice volume is not." The position is that while sea ice is increasing the ice overall on land is decreasing. Salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh water as the area grows warmer, land ice is melting. This releases fresh water, which flows to the area of sea ice, and reduces the salinity of the available free water. This in turn increases the temperature at which the water freezes, thus the extent of sea ice increases as the salinity decreases." Comments anyone? journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-13-00301.1?af=R.Uvnt2RsanUw.twitterExtent and area have increased in recent years, naturally sea ice volume has followed suit. With respect to land ice it is well known up until 2008 NASA presented a net gain in ice mass balance in Antarctica. Observations if anything have shown cooling since 2008. There is also the factor of common sense. My post from the 10k challenge: Here is Sigurdur's post from the 10k challenge: I would be highly skeptical of any claims of net loss since 2008.
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 1, 2014 22:47:28 GMT
It appears that this is one of the many unsupported and illogical 'statements of (supposed) fact' floated as strawmen. Heat in the deep ocean, arctic getting warmer, tropics getting hotter, 2014 hottest year ever... etc etc., These get immediaate press headlines and it is left to commenters to point out the fallacies. It would appear that we are moving back into the dark ages, and climate scientists and the large 'scientific' societies have sold their ethics for government funding. The climate seems to be following Theodore's and Piers Corbyn's predictions and getting colder. I expect these unsupported panic calls to increase in numberss and hyperbole as these 'scientist' double down hoping against hope that Gaia listens.
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Post by icefisher on Aug 1, 2014 23:15:17 GMT
Question for group: I ran into this "Antarctic sea ice extent is at record levels but Antarctic sea ice volume is not." The position is that while sea ice is increasing the ice overall on land is decreasing. Salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh water as the area grows warmer, land ice is melting. This releases fresh water, which flows to the area of sea ice, and reduces the salinity of the available free water. This in turn increases the temperature at which the water freezes, thus the extent of sea ice increases as the salinity decreases." Comments anyone? According to some of the more dire study results Antarctica's contribution to sealevel increases has recently accelerated to about 1 millimeter of sealevel rise per year over the past 15 years or so quadrupling from .27mm. All you have to do to see a prediction of disaster is compound that rate of acceleration for about a 100 years. Must be true!
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 2, 2014 0:25:34 GMT
Question for group: I ran into this "Antarctic sea ice extent is at record levels but Antarctic sea ice volume is not." The position is that while sea ice is increasing the ice overall on land is decreasing. Salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh water as the area grows warmer, land ice is melting. This releases fresh water, which flows to the area of sea ice, and reduces the salinity of the available free water. This in turn increases the temperature at which the water freezes, thus the extent of sea ice increases as the salinity decreases." Comments anyone? journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/JCLI-D-13-00301.1?af=R.Uvnt2RsanUw.twitterExtent and area have increased in recent years, naturally sea ice volume has followed suit. With respect to land ice it is well known up until 2008 NASA presented a net gain in ice mass balance in Antarctica. Observations if anything have shown cooling since 2008. There is also the factor of common sense. My post from the 10k challenge: Here is Sigurdur's post from the 10k challenge: I would be highly skeptical of any claims of net loss since 2008. Did you note that Dr. Keating never answered my question as to source?
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 2, 2014 0:27:40 GMT
Question for group: I ran into this "Antarctic sea ice extent is at record levels but Antarctic sea ice volume is not." The position is that while sea ice is increasing the ice overall on land is decreasing. Salt water freezes at a lower temperature than fresh water as the area grows warmer, land ice is melting. This releases fresh water, which flows to the area of sea ice, and reduces the salinity of the available free water. This in turn increases the temperature at which the water freezes, thus the extent of sea ice increases as the salinity decreases." Comments anyone? According to some of the more dire study results Antarctica's contribution to sealevel increases has recently accelerated to about 1 millimeter of sealevel rise per year over the past 15 years or so quadrupling from .27mm. All you have to do to see a prediction of disaster is compound that rate of acceleration for about a 100 years. Must be true! And the tide gauges continue to show virtually no sea level rise. But then, those are just "simple" observations. I don't believe they measure to the .00010th of a mm do they?
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