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Post by graywolf on Jan 26, 2017 12:06:00 GMT
Thanks Naut!
If Siggy is right about the benefits an ice free Arctic will bring for mankind then why did we not flourish, and develop, under such conditions 125 years ago ( or over that 20 thousand years of such 'optimum' conditions?)?
If Human population was centred around south Africa ( were we find the oldest finds?) then why could we not see rapid civilisation in that area?
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Post by Ratty on Jan 26, 2017 12:43:51 GMT
Thanks Naut! If Siggy is right about the benefits an ice free Arctic will bring for mankind then why did we not flourish, and develop, under such conditions 125 years ago ( or over that 20 thousand years of such 'optimum' conditions?)? If Human population was centred around south Africa ( were we find the oldest finds?) then why could we not see rapid civilisation in that area? 125 years ago? Was the Arctic ice free in the 1890s?
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Post by sigurdur on Jan 26, 2017 13:33:31 GMT
Thanks Naut! If Siggy is right about the benefits an ice free Arctic will bring for mankind then why did we not flourish, and develop, under such conditions 125 years ago ( or over that 20 thousand years of such 'optimum' conditions?)? If Human population was centred around south Africa ( were we find the oldest finds?) then why could we not see rapid civilisation in that area? . . . ?
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 7, 2017 14:47:14 GMT
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Post by phydeaux2363 on Feb 7, 2017 16:24:37 GMT
That's a fascinating process taking place, Mr. Sig. It's unfortunate, at least for me, that the discussion has to be peppered with hints of a dystopian future of flooded cities caused by collapsing ice shelves throughout the world. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy nature doing what she does--changing the surface of the planet with unrelenting regularity. Why is every change cause for forehead pounding, hand wringing and breast beating? Our Earth is a remarkable, and remarkably dynamic place. Humans in the 21st century have the tools to measure and observe these processes like never before. Let's let the wonder of it all lift our spirits, instead of drive us down to a bleak depression. Enjoy the grandeur that is nature!
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 7, 2017 16:48:44 GMT
That's a fascinating process taking place, Mr. Sig. It's unfortunate, at least for me, that the discussion has to be peppered with hints of a dystopian future of flooded cities caused by collapsing ice shelves throughout the world. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy nature doing what she does--changing the surface of the planet with unrelenting regularity. Why is every change cause for forehead pounding, hand wringing and breast beating? Our Earth is a remarkable, and remarkably dynamic place. Humans in the 21st century have the tools to measure and observe these processes like never before. Let's let the wonder of it all lift our spirits, instead of drive us down to a bleak depression. Enjoy the grandeur that is nature! I agree 100%! A period of refreshment for me is watching the change from winter, to spring, to summer. Followed by the bounty of harvest. I would love to see a glacier calf in person, but I don't think that will happen. Instead I get to watch the snow retreat, knowing the earth will rise from slumber. The logistics of living in a colder climate require insulation, heat sources, food reserves etc. One of the things I love about summer is I can pick a Juneberry, pluck a strawberry, pull a carrot from the garden area. In other seasons, I have to rely on dried fruit or the deep freeze. Seasons come, seasons go. Climate comes, climate goes. As I age, I realize how short 10,000 years is. Approx 10,000 years ago, there was a lake bed where I live. 15,000 years ago there was miles of ice above me. This insane idea that 1 or 2C of warmer average temps is a bad thing is just that, insane. Do you really think anyone cares if it is 110F or 112F? Both are hot. Anyone really care if it is -30F or -35F? Both are cold. Nature marches on. Had a quick twitter conversation this morning with a fellow who is worried that with the rise in CO2 all the oxygen will disappear. I was taken aback, are folks really this stupid? As liberals have become more bold with their proclamations of doom since President Trump was elected, the level of stupid I observe floors me. Can folks really BE this uneducated? They call me a red neck, uneducated buffoon because I don't toe their line. My goodness, why would I WANT to toe their line? ? Only if I dropped my IQ by a 100 points COULD I toe their line of thinking.
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Post by graywolf on Feb 7, 2017 20:38:34 GMT
Don't get hung up on 'averages there Siggy! It does not show the 'extremes that can be used to produce quite a nominal change? You look at the west Siberia temp anom presently and you'd think 'cooling' but by the time their summer heatwave is over they'll end the year above the average.
It appears that the Antarctic is now suffering a similar fate to the north with warm ,moist incursions now making it into the coastal regions. Areas around the southern Ocean and so open to sudden air mass imposition have also been seeing 'unseasonable' weather from South Island NZ to South America. The flip to IPO positive is making itself felt!
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Post by Ratty on Feb 7, 2017 22:39:50 GMT
That's a fascinating process taking place, Mr. Sig. It's unfortunate, at least for me, that the discussion has to be peppered with hints of a dystopian future of flooded cities caused by collapsing ice shelves throughout the world. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy nature doing what she does--changing the surface of the planet with unrelenting regularity. Why is every change cause for forehead pounding, hand wringing and breast beating? Our Earth is a remarkable, and remarkably dynamic place. Humans in the 21st century have the tools to measure and observe these processes like never before. Let's let the wonder of it all lift our spirits, instead of drive us down to a bleak depression. Enjoy the grandeur that is nature! Well said, Fido!
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Post by missouriboy on Feb 8, 2017 10:11:12 GMT
We Hope You are Alright Down There Mr Phy!
At least seven tornadoes hit southeastern Louisiana on Tuesday (Feb. 7), resulting in at least 28 injuries reported in the New Orleans area, as well as two injuries reported on the North Shore, the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness said Tuesday night.6 hours ago
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Post by nautonnier on Feb 8, 2017 12:21:38 GMT
That's a fascinating process taking place, Mr. Sig. It's unfortunate, at least for me, that the discussion has to be peppered with hints of a dystopian future of flooded cities caused by collapsing ice shelves throughout the world. Why can't we just sit back and enjoy nature doing what she does--changing the surface of the planet with unrelenting regularity. Why is every change cause for forehead pounding, hand wringing and breast beating? Our Earth is a remarkable, and remarkably dynamic place. Humans in the 21st century have the tools to measure and observe these processes like never before. Let's let the wonder of it all lift our spirits, instead of drive us down to a bleak depression. Enjoy the grandeur that is nature! To some extent being upset as the unremitting coastal erosion eat a village, or a mudslide flood houses in a valley is understandable. What is less so is the cries of "it is all our fault!!!". It has echoes of fire and brimstone traveling preachers and says more about the people looking for someone to blame than about the preachers.
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Post by phydeaux2363 on Feb 8, 2017 22:28:07 GMT
We Hope You are Alright Down There Mr Phy! At least seven tornadoes hit southeastern Louisiana on Tuesday (Feb. 7), resulting in at least 28 injuries reported in the New Orleans area, as well as two injuries reported on the North Shore, the Governor's Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness said Tuesday night.6 hours ago Pretty wild. I don't recall an F-3 tornado this close to the coast, at least not in my lifetime. That being said, no fatalities, a few injuries, lots of PD, but we'll be OK. Gonna set back NASA's Deep Space mission a little though. i understand some sophisticated computerized welding machines got wet from a hole in the roof of the facility where the fuel tanks are being built. Life will go on! Thanks for the thought, Mr. Moboy.
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Post by graywolf on Feb 13, 2017 15:35:08 GMT
NSIDC extent record was broken yesterday with another 3 weeks of melt possible!
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Post by phydeaux2363 on Feb 13, 2017 22:24:39 GMT
NSIDC extent record was broken yesterday with another 3 weeks of melt possible! Sometimes I'm not sure what to make of your posts, Mr. Wolf. I think it is pretty clear that you adhere to the belief that a warming climate is anthropogenic, and presents a serious danger to humankind, or at least civilization as we know it. And yet, when you provide us with data or reports you believe support the potentially apocalyptic result of fossil fuel burning, you do so with what appears to me at least to be undisguised glee. That seems a strange emotion when predicting or even reporting on a potentially dystopian future. If your attitude comes from a satisfaction born of a belief that your version of the future is being vindicated by the data, then I guess it is a harmless thing, albeit a bit infantile. If, on the other hand, it comes from a deep seated misanthropy, then I find it down right creepy. I will admit, though, you certainly stay on the top and bottom of all things icy in our world, and your links are appreciated.
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Post by graywolf on Feb 14, 2017 12:54:32 GMT
I think you'll find that a lot of climate scientists suffer the same cognitive dissonance when seeing 'Bad' events occur? After spending nearly 2 decades warning of what will most likely occur, and defending that view over the period, when you see it made flesh then you do feel a flash of satisfaction at the event before the guilt of that feeling and the horror of the implications of the event hit home?
I do not wish to appear as you describe and do my best to keep it factual but I cannot deny that when an event does occur that sees folk give up Denial of our forcings impacts on our atmosphere/Oceans/land masses I will be both pleased and horrified ( at the event and that we needed wait until such before trying to mitigate what must come next?)
As far as the Antarctic is concerned it will, eventually, be more dramatic in its losses and calving events than the Arctic has ever been. I warned throughout the noughties that the forcings that were augmenting one another to bring us conditions that fasvoured sea ice expansion would end ( one was natural and one was Human driven).
We might well be seeing that switch to high loss beginning. If next Antarctic melt Season sees a similar early max and rapid collapse then we will have a better idea of whether this is what is going on but one melt season does not give us such confidence that the switch has occurred but we do know that the Ozone hole is mending and that the Pacific drivers are now supportive of Sea ice retreat.
Antarctic Sea ice is actually better for the Ice shelfs and limiting losses loss as it restricts 'mixing' and keeps the warmed waters lower in the column allowing them to attack the bases of the grounded ice sheets. As such the last 20 years has seen grounding lines in rapid retreat on the prone shelfs ?
Anyhow , sorry if my satisfaction creeps in on occassion but I'm sure you'll have empathy with it as I'm sure if you had spent 20 years warning folk about something only for them to name call and make fun of your understanding then you cannot help but think " There!, its just as I said it would be!".
I suppose the old cartoon of Noah sat next to his Ark with a couple of joes walking by saying " turned out nice again!" sums it up . If you believe in fairy stories then Noah was warned about one upcoming event and was given a time limit.
We have multiple areas of concern and nobody can be sure of timings. We know that past instances of such temps GHG levels have meant a lot less ice on Greenland/West Antarctica so we must find ourselves in a similar position it is just a matter of 'When'.
I tend to think that the general public have been lulled into a false sense of security over the last 15 years or so as climate science reeled from the attacks of paid misleader/liars and so lent toward only publicising only the most conservative of the expected impacts. As such The public is not in any way prepared for what has already begun to occur across the Stratosphere/Troposphere ( even science were unprepared for the QBO issues and yet this impacts the weather around the planet!!") .
If the antarctic behaviour this melt season was more a reflection of the wider global issues and not just the Pacific/Ozone forcings now favouring low sea ice then we are in mighty troubles! I would advise we keep a weather eye on the Coastal antarctic conditions over refreeze and the impacts of rogue 'cold plunges' into S.Africa/S.America/Australia and NZ?
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 14, 2017 16:17:33 GMT
What differs between Greywolf and myself is I recognize the march of time. I recognize the change of the seasons. I don't find anyone to blame, I accept and embrace the change as it is the reality that has been for billions of years.
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