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Post by magellan on Aug 25, 2013 22:32:17 GMT
Numeruno: No video has been done because it is not a rare event. Ever notice frost? I am not asking anyone to locate videos on farmers under frost in their fields. I'm asking for a video that shows that warm air emanating from freezing water than many here say must exist, in a nice clear room/lab setting preferrably so that I everyone can see and go "gee, just what I told would happen". If it is not a rare event at all, then how come am I seeing no clips? DO LOOP......
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 25, 2013 22:44:59 GMT
Numeruno: Take a walk on the wild side. Let Nature be the video. (Forget what is known in ag circles)
Just observe....does a body well.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 1:55:13 GMT
Numeruno: Take a walk on the wild side. Let Nature be the video. (Forget what is known in ag circles) Just observe....does a body well. Please stop being so foolish There are no demonstrations of heat arising from freezing ice.
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 26, 2013 2:19:17 GMT
Wrong Iceskater. Tell that to farmers who protect using the latent heat, which is measurable, to keep orchards and veggies from freezing. Did u know there are programs written to apply the exact amount of water so that water is conserved?
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 2:29:53 GMT
Wrong Iceskater. Tell that to farmers who protect using the latent heat, which is measurable, to keep orchards and veggies from freezing. Did u know there are programs written to apply the exact amount of water so that water is conserved? The farmers are using the latent heat The water provides far more heating that it would do without the latent heat But the heating is only visible when you cool the water and find more cooling is required than you might have expected. There is no heat released that can heat things other than the source of cooling.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 3:55:30 GMT
It is easy to see how these guys are getting so muddled up. What he said in that text is sort of correct but misses the obvious bigger point. Ie 1. When warm water is being cooled by a colder environment the temperature of the environment warms up! 2. When cold water is being cooled by a colder environment the temperature of the environment warms up! 3. When ice cold water is being cooled by a colder environment the temperature of the environment warms up! 4. When ice is being cooled by a colder environment the temperature of the environment warms up!
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Post by icefisher on Aug 26, 2013 4:51:27 GMT
Numeruno: Take a walk on the wild side. Let Nature be the video. (Forget what is known in ag circles) Just observe....does a body well. Please stop being so foolish There are no demonstrations of heat arising from freezing ice. Horse manure! You know dang well heat rises any and all times that the ground is warmer than the sky. When there is strong cooling a strong temperature gradient forms. The ice hits freezing and completely stops warming but the air will continue to cool so heat will rise and prevent the air from cooling. Its quite simple. I don't know why you don't get that.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 5:05:20 GMT
Please stop being so foolish There are no demonstrations of heat arising from freezing ice. Horse manure! You know dang well heat rises any and all times that the ground is warmer than the sky. When there is strong cooling a strong temperature gradient forms. The ice hits freezing and completely stops warming falling in temperature but the air will continue to cool so heat will rise and prevent the air from cooling. Its quite simple. I don't know why you don't get that. The air can only continue to cool if it is colder elsewhere. Therefore the warmer cold air is heating the place that is colder The warmer icey water is heating the colder air and probably the place that is colder The warmer icey water is being cooled by the colder air and probably the place that is colder
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 26, 2013 5:28:05 GMT
And the phase change of water to ice on the leaves of plants releases the energy that prevents the plants from freezing.
It is the phase change of the water that provides the heat.
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 26, 2013 5:30:20 GMT
The computer programs, which drive the pumps, know the change in temp, the measured latent heat of the reaction of X gallons of water. Don't need much protection? Low water volumes are put on....need more protection? More water is applied. In cooler temps the water almost phase changes in the air, and if that happens the water is worthless as protection to the plant as it MUST hit the plant in liquid form.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 5:33:50 GMT
Horse manure! You know dang well heat rises any and all times that the ground is warmer than the sky. False. The nature of a frost in dry air and very light winds is that the ground is colder than the air a few metres above the ground.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 5:36:47 GMT
And the phase change of water to ice on the leaves of plants releases the energy that prevents the plants from freezing. It is the phase change of the water that provides the heat. No matter how many times you ignore what i have said and repeat the same thing does not make you right. It is the sort of thing a child does. An adult interacts with the point the other person is raising. The phase change energy enables the icey water to remain longer at 0C than would otherwise be possible. No heat is released other than energy that prevents more cooling by the cooling force.
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 26, 2013 5:39:33 GMT
Iceskater: Yep, the phase change keeps the temp constant. And for that to happen, energy HAS to be released.
That is why in scientific circles it is referred to as released heat. Without the energy released, the temp would fall.
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 26, 2013 5:40:38 GMT
energy=heat......ya know? And I know you know this.
In fact, you stated it.
"No heat is released other than energy that prevents more cooling by the cooling force."
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 5:43:09 GMT
The computer programs, which drive the pumps, know the change in temp, the measured latent heat of the reaction of X gallons of water. Don't need much protection? Low water volumes are put on....need more protection? More water is applied. In cooler temps the water almost phase changes in the air, and if that happens the water is worthless as protection to the plant as it MUST hit the plant in liquid form. That is a strawman. You are totally not interacting with the point that is being explained to you that you do not understand. Nobody is disputing that the latent heat of fusion is a factor in enabling the plants to be protected from being damaged. Yes. Water and ice can only exist together at the freezing point. if water is on top of ice then sooner or later the ice must warm to be at the freezing point and cannot be colder. If very cold frozen ice sticks to the ice on the plants it will cool the ice but providing shortly afterwards water can form on the ice then the ice must warm to the freezing point again, and providing the ice on the plant is sufficiently thick then occassional periods of freezing at the surface will not matter
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