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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 5:48:51 GMT
energy=heat......ya know? And I know you know this. In fact, you stated it. "No heat is released other than energy that prevents more cooling by the cooling force." I have not said that very clearly. Nothing magical happens at 0C when ice begins to form. Heat is not being released at this point that was not being released before the ice began to form. It just takes longer for the temperature to fall below 0C Water at 0C is likely to be warming the cold environment at the same rate that icey water is warming the same environment In both cases that cold environment is cooling the water or icey water. Water at 100C is likely to be warming your skin at the same rate that steam warms your skin. Steam however will be burning you for a longer time before it can be cooled by your skin
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 5:55:42 GMT
And the phase change of water to ice on the leaves of plants releases the energy that prevents the plants from freezing. It is the phase change of the water that provides the heat. As Andrew and myself have said, repeatedly in fact, there is NO SPONTANEOUS RELEASE OF ENERGY during phase change, just A DELAY, a sort of resistance, to changes in temperature caused by EXTERNAL energy transfer. The temp will remain at 0C in the case of ice. As Andrew and myself have said, repeatedly in fact, there is NO SPONTANEOUS CAPTURE OF ENERGY during phase change, just A DELAY, a sort of resistance, to changes in temperature caused by EXTERNAL energy transfer. The temp will remain at 0C in the case of ice. The heating effect of the irrigation you hover about stems only from the thermal energy carried into the fields by the pumped-in water. If it were windy at all during the night frosts, which it never is, afaik, evaporation of the water and the concomitant carrying of heat away from the plants would only makes things worse.
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 5:59:23 GMT
Numeruno: Take a walk on the wild side. Let Nature be the video. (Forget what is known in ag circles) Just observe....does a body well. Well, the system costs money, right? Are you saying you are buying something that you have NO EVIDENCE OF, other than the salesperson's own words? Even the so called inventor himself is apparently unable to provice any evidence on that there would be a mysterious, against-the-laws-of physics release of energy during freezing!
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 6:01:31 GMT
And the phase change of water to ice on the leaves of plants releases the energy that prevents the plants from freezing. It is the phase change of the water that provides the heat. As Andrew and myself have said, repeatedly in fact, there is NO SPONTANEOUS RELEASE OF ENERGY during phase change, just A DELAY, a sort of resistance, to changes in temperature caused by EXTERNAL energy transfer. The temp will remain at 0C in the case of ice. As Andrew and myself have said, repeatedly in fact, there is NO SPONTANEOUS CAPTURE OF ENERGY during phase change, just A DELAY, a sort of resistance, to changes in temperature caused by EXTERNAL energy transfer. The temp will remain at 0C in the case of ice. The heating effect of the irrigation you hover about stems only from the thermal energy carried into the fields by the pumped-in water. If it were windy at all during the night frosts, which it never is, afaik, evaporation of the water and the concomitant carrying of heat away from the plants would only makes things worse. If we could agree why a Fohn wind is a hot dry wind I will be much happier If we can manage that if we could work out if air coming from a dehumidifier is warmer or not, and have agreed reasons, I will be happier still. We might then be able to tackle the other issues we are unable to agree on. It is all simple physics so there is no reason for us to disagree
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 6:09:48 GMT
If we can manage that if we could agree why the air coming from a dehumidifier is warmer I will be happier still.
Because the utility put power in the wires, that is why.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 6:13:51 GMT
If we can manage that if we could agree why the air coming from a dehumidifier is warmer I will be happier still.Because the utility put power in the wires, that is why. I notice you have obfuscated by not enabling a discussion of why a fohn wind is a hot dry wind Next thing you will be back to making abusive comments about my mental health. I have no doubt you are being deceitful about the fohn wind for a reason related to you being unable to admit you can be wrong.
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 6:16:07 GMT
If we can manage that if we could agree why the air coming from a dehumidifier is warmer I will be happier still.Because the utility put power in the wires, that is why. I notice you have obfuscated by not enabling a discussion of why a fohn wind is a hot dry wind I have made no statements regarding Fohn wind here, ever.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 6:20:55 GMT
I notice you have obfuscated by not enabling a discussion of why a fohn wind is a hot dry wind I have made no statements regarding Fohn wind here, ever. That is a strawman designed to make the other person look foolish so silly points can be scored for no purpose that progresses a discussion. It is my contention that a hot dry wind arising from a fohn wind and a warm dry wind coming from a dehumidifier are arising from the same principle of extraction of the latent heat of condensation so that it can be felt as sensible energy. Therefore if you can agree why a Fohn wind is hot and dry it will be helpful for the purpose of having a discussion where a discussion involves the input of two people who interact together
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 6:24:38 GMT
I have made no statements regarding Fohn wind here, ever. It is my contention that a hot dry wind arising from a fohn wind and a warm dry wind coming from a dehumidifier are arising from the same principle of extraction of the latent heat of condensation so that it can be felt as sensible energy. Therefore if you can agree why a Fohn wind is hot and dry it will be helpful for the purpose of having a discussion where a discussion involves the input of two people who interact together I'm sorry but demumidifier is not a free source of heating energy. Yes, it will concentrate the thermal energy of moisture into one place, but it will use more energy than gained in the actual process. As always, I'd be delighted to hear from any low-to-zero energy house owners that manage their practical heating needs by a dehumidifier.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 6:26:33 GMT
It is my contention that a hot dry wind arising from a fohn wind and a warm dry wind coming from a dehumidifier are arising from the same principle of extraction of the latent heat of condensation so that it can be felt as sensible energy. Therefore if you can agree why a Fohn wind is hot and dry it will be helpful for the purpose of having a discussion where a discussion involves the input of two people who interact together I'm sorry but demumidifier is not a free source of heating energy. Yes, it will concentrate the thermal energy of moisture into one place, but it will use more energy than gained in the actual process. As always, I'd be delighted to hear from any low-to-zero energy house owners that manage their heating needs by a dehumidifier. Is a hot dry fohn wind a free source of energy? Is the sun a free source of energy? Please stop being such a f**kwit when you have a conversation with me. It is bad enuf dealing with the others.
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 6:35:13 GMT
I'm sorry but demumidifier is not a free source of heating energy. Yes, it will concentrate the thermal energy of moisture into one place, but it will use more energy than gained in the actual process. As always, I'd be delighted to hear from any low-to-zero energy house owners that manage their heating needs by a dehumidifier. Is a hot dry fohn wind a free source of energy? Is the sun a free source of energy? Please stop being such a f**kwit when you have a conversation with me. It is bad enuf dealing with the others. I'm under no obligation to converse with you, and in fact the same applies the other way as well. I'm sorry if you find it difficult dealing with others, but as I've told, and I hope you have understood, there could be reasons.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 26, 2013 11:28:20 GMT
Is a hot dry fohn wind a free source of energy? Is the sun a free source of energy? Please stop being such a f**kwit when you have a conversation with me. It is bad enuf dealing with the others. I'm under no obligation to converse with you, and in fact the same applies the other way as well. I'm sorry if you find it difficult dealing with others, but as I've told, and I hope you have understood, there could be reasons.
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Post by numerouno on Aug 26, 2013 14:35:25 GMT
I realized there is no actual snow in the world.
Snow is ice crystals, and the hot air from freezing will melt it away.
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Post by icefisher on Aug 26, 2013 23:51:00 GMT
Let's discuss this in more detail. Numerouno has me questioning a phase change with water vapor to liquid that I thought I understood. Maybe I don't, and would most certainly like to. The properties of water are still quite mysterious. Read up on the mpemba effect. Its an effect that is commonly observed where warm water freezes faster than cooler water. But there has been a lot of changing of goal posts in this thread. The issue is if heat rises from freezing ice to maintain temperatures or raise them. Its clear the freezing of water causes latent heat to convert to sensible heat and slow the cooling of the water to zero. In the case of the atmosphere above the water, heat does rise to slow cooling there also. But in conventional conduction, convection, and radiation heat only flows from hot to cold. At night water cools faster than the atmosphere so the water is the cold sink, so no conventional heat transfer system is available to warm or even neutralize cooling of the atmosphere. The rapid cooling of the atmosphere via conduction to the water causes a temperature gradient to be created as its faster than air can conduct heat internally. So when freezing begins and latent heat is released it stops the cooling of the water. Since it stopped the cooling of water it also stops the downward conduction of heat from the atmosphere. The atmosphere is also cooling by radiating to space. So the atmosphere would continue to cool if the water stops cooling the air. And of course as soon as that condition sets in latent heat will not only be mitigating the heat being radiated to space by the water, but it will rise and mitigate the loss of heat by the atmosphere via radiation to space. so indeed sensible heat rises into the sky by the release of latent heat in typical arctic and apparently agricultural situations. The only hard restriction appears to be that the release of latent heat is not capable of warming anything above zero C without adding work. Iceskater might dispute that notion. He claims all you need to warm something is to slow its cooling. So it should warm the atmosphere above 0C if thats true. I haven't bought into that last one yet though despite the fact that the 3K of space is made up of stars far hotter than our sun they aren't going to warm 273K air or water even if net cooling goes to zero.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 27, 2013 2:43:40 GMT
there has been a lot of changing of goal posts in this thread. False. The objective is to provide an education about the meaning of latent heat, where: 1. ice cold water has no more heating ability per unit of time than unfrozen water of the same temperature *and* 2. latent heat of fusion cannot raise the temperature of water unless water is supercooled below 0C. *and* 3. Latent heat enables the heating ability available in 1. to be sustained from the warmth of 0C icey water for a longer period of time, without less heating ability becoming present, thru a fall in temperature, until freezing is completed despite the fact that the 3K of space is made up of stars far hotter than our sun they aren't going to warm 273K air or water even if net cooling goes to zero. False The big bang theory of the universe has been assumed because it was realised there is insufficient hot matter in the universe because the sky at night is not totally white with stars. Instead, energy, as a cooling force originating on Earth, is thought to be travelling outwards beyond the explosion event horizon and there is nothing beyond the event horizon that can be sending energy back to Earth. If all of the energy of this cooling force originating on Earth, that is today passing beyond the event horizon, never left Earth, then Earth would continue to be heated by the white hot stars and would become their temperature or close to it and would have no ability to be colder. Under our current theory of the Universe, the 3K of space represents a balance between enormous heating forces and the far greater enormous ability to cool to the enormous nothingness of totally empty space.
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