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Post by Andrew on Feb 5, 2014 7:34:04 GMT
You are being totally weird. I dismissed your beliefs about what he said with: 5 months earlier I was doing my best to emphasise what was being described and doing so time and time again. How can it be that i said that so many times and you cannot understand what i am saying? ?? How can it be that after 7 months of arguing you are still fighting me tooth and nail over the confusing farmers comments? 3 science graduates said the nsidc and farmers texts were wrong and you are still coming out with weird science comments about the irrelevancy of the word latent in latent heat of fusion, as if you dont have a slightest clue what you are talking about. The farmers are clearly muddled up but you will not allow that reality to exist and you are endlessly fighting me over it. Why??? Whatever you thought Numerouno said has nothing to do with me and the fact of the matter is you are still relentlessly fighting me over things that should have been resolved months and months ago. Why are you behaving so weirdly? You dismissed what he said? An aside is a dramatic device where an actor reveals private thoughts to the audience. How did you dismiss what he said by calling it an aside? And you still have not said if it was right or it was wrong, and you have continued to say Numeruno was completely vindicated. So come on Andrew cough it up, was it right or was it wrong and why has it taken you 6 months to answer that question? English is not his native tongue. Yes, i realise my use of 'aside' in december was the wrong word, but the meaning of my sentence is obvious. You totally misunderstood what he was talking about. Originally I said 'a side comment' It should be obvious that neither myself or Numerouno are revising what we said. As a side comment, Numerouno mentioned that expanding ice fractures rock.
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Post by icefisher on Feb 5, 2014 15:06:13 GMT
You dismissed what he said? An aside is a dramatic device where an actor reveals private thoughts to the audience. How did you dismiss what he said by calling it an aside? And you still have not said if it was right or it was wrong, and you have continued to say Numeruno was completely vindicated. So come on Andrew cough it up, was it right or was it wrong and why has it taken you 6 months to answer that question? English is not his native tongue. Yes, i realise my use of 'aside' in december was the wrong word, but the meaning of my sentence is obvious. You totally misunderstood what he was talking about. Originally I said 'a side comment' It should be obvious that neither myself or Numerouno are revising what we said. As a side comment, Numerouno mentioned that expanding ice fractures rock. Since the topic was whether the energy from the release of latent heat was released externally and Numerouno was maintaining it was not that instead it was entirely an internal process that the energy was expended in expanding ice and fracturing rock one has have a pretty bad command of the language to suggest it was irrelevant to the discussion. I can certainly forgive a lack of language proficiency as most confusion even between native speakers is a result of language problems because language is imprecise by its very nature. We have dialect differences between age groups, races, locations and nobody has a precise handle on the meaning of words even between two people.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 5, 2014 17:06:49 GMT
English is not his native tongue. Yes, i realise my use of 'aside' in december was the wrong word, but the meaning of my sentence is obvious. You totally misunderstood what he was talking about. Originally I said 'a side comment' Since the topic was whether the energy from the release of latent heat was released externally and Numerouno was maintaining it was not that instead it was entirely an internal process that the energy was expended in expanding ice and fracturing rock one has have a pretty bad command of the language to suggest it was irrelevant to the discussion. I can certainly forgive a lack of language proficiency as most confusion even between native speakers is a result of language problems because language is imprecise by its very nature. We have dialect differences between age groups, races, locations and nobody has a precise handle on the meaning of words even between two people. He said the release of latent heat involves no external release of heat other than the temperature of the water remaining hotter for longer than it otherwise would do. He said the release of heat was undetectable to a thermometer so could not be used to create heat spikes or bursts of energy or puffs of warm air. He also said the energy transfer of heating boiling water involved no observeable temperature change >>I can certainly forgive a lack of language proficiency It seems you can forgive yourself for making mistakes that totally create confusion for the reader but even while num said this: Energy during the cooling will be drawn from the water, freezing water, and ice at different times, and the heat in the environment of the cooling body can't be detected and "earmarked" as having come from a specific stage of cooling. A fast water-to-water rate of cooling will be easier to achieve, and the maximum ice-to-water rate will be far more slower. The surroundings will be unable to tell the source of energy in either case. You are going to insist for all time that actually he was saying something totally differently just because in one single line he talked about the energy being used to break rocks!!
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Post by icefisher on Feb 6, 2014 0:36:40 GMT
He said the release of latent heat involves no external release of heat other than the temperature of the water remaining hotter for longer than it otherwise would do. He said the release of heat was undetectable to a thermometer so could not be used to create heat spikes or bursts of energy or puffs of warm air. Sure but its wrong. First, "no external release of heat" is much different than no "external release of heat other than". In case one there is no external release of heat and in case two there is an external release of heat. Second, for supercooled water it goes beyond simply maintaining the temperature of the water. Of course these points were made clear months ago and you continued to insult people over them, write NSIDC with moronic requests, and now the University of Florida. At least Numerouno had the sense to realize there was really little to argue about. And of course this quote you produce here came a few days after he said the energy was used to expand ice and split rocks. So he may have learned something along the way.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 6, 2014 5:08:13 GMT
He said the release of latent heat involves no external release of heat other than the temperature of the water remaining hotter for longer than it otherwise would do. He said the release of heat was undetectable to a thermometer so could not be used to create heat spikes or bursts of energy or puffs of warm air. Sure but its wrong. First, "no external release of heat" is much different than no "external release of heat other than". In case one there is no external release of heat and in case two there is an external release of heat. Second, for supercooled water it goes beyond simply maintaining the temperature of the water. Of course these points were made clear months ago and you continued to insult people over them, write NSIDC with moronic requests, and now the University of Florida. At least Numerouno had the sense to realize there was really little to argue about. And of course this quote you produce here came a few days after he said the energy was used to expand ice and split rocks. So he may have learned something along the way. its not wrong! You cant take part of a post and create special meaning while totally ignoring another part that totally does not suit your agenda!
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Post by icefisher on Feb 6, 2014 17:09:11 GMT
Sure but its wrong. First, "no external release of heat" is much different than no "external release of heat other than". In case one there is no external release of heat and in case two there is an external release of heat. Second, for supercooled water it goes beyond simply maintaining the temperature of the water. Of course these points were made clear months ago and you continued to insult people over them, write NSIDC with moronic requests, and now the University of Florida. At least Numerouno had the sense to realize there was really little to argue about. And of course this quote you produce here came a few days after he said the energy was used to expand ice and split rocks. So he may have learned something along the way. its not wrong! You cant take part of a post and create special meaning while totally ignoring another part that totally does not suit your agenda! I am not taking a part of a post. You guys must have said a dozen times that the heat does not rise out of the water externally. The fact you did once like a week or more into the conversation shows that either you learned something and now for 6 months you have been in damage control mode. Or it means you think you know something still we don't know. But oddly you are having a great deal of difficulty describing what that is.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 6, 2014 20:08:16 GMT
its not wrong! You cant take part of a post and create special meaning while totally ignoring another part that totally does not suit your agenda! I am not taking a part of a post. You guys must have said a dozen times that the heat does not rise out of the water externally. The fact you did once like a week or more into the conversation shows that either you learned something and now for 6 months you have been in damage control mode. Or it means you think you know something still we don't know. But oddly you are having a great deal of difficulty describing what that is. Icefisher, Yes, I kept repeating the same thing. The meaning was crystal clear to me. But not to you. The ice can only freeze either by radiating energy to a colder air layer or space or by warming the very cold air that blows across the water ice mixture. So yes the ice is releasing energy to the atmosphere and the ice is a source of heat which can warm the atmosphere, but the unfrozen water is also a source of heat that can warm the atmosphere and is actually a greater source of heat because it has a higher temperature. It is called the latent heat of fusion of water for a good reason. You cannot observe the release of heat because it is hidden. All that will be noticeable is that the freezing ice water mixture is a greater source of heat for the atmosphere than if the ice water mixture had fallen in temperature and had not had the latent heats ability to maintain the ice water at around -2C as it freezes. Yes the ice water mixture is warmer because of the latent heat of fusion of water and yes that heat adds to the heating of the colder atmosphere which must now be warmer, but we cannot say the latent heat is released to heat the atmosphere in the way they are suggesting. The atmosphere is warmer because of ice formation than it would be if the ice formed and had no latent heat. If you cool water with a cold wind to produce ice you warm the air that passes over the icey water. However, if you cool liquid water that is not freezing, ie the water is warmer than icey water, you warm the air more than if you cool air to produce ice. Yes energy is released but it only stops the temperature decline. I think part of the problem is the useage of the word 'released'. Instead the heat can only flow out of the water like any heat flows from an object in the presence of a lower temperature to enable that. 'Release' implies it floats off somewhere like a packet of energy that can be used elsewhere. Meanwhile i just found this unedited gem of mine embedded in one of your posts: this is what Numno said was the fate of the energy: Of course no such thing will happen, the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)So Numno said the energy will be used to chop down mountains. Do you agree with that Iceskater? Seems Numno is revising his position. Are you? Numerouno has not expressed the science correctly in that sentence. The phase change energy does not go into changing the water into ice but rather it has to be removed by cooling before ice will form. Totally obviously i have been saying the same thing since August 23rd 2013.
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