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Post by icefisher on Sept 9, 2013 17:13:04 GMT
And i have asked you to confirm you are too stupid to find a link Actually we are all waiting to see if that includes you. Most of us could care less and expect there are always a few people griping someplace about anything. . . . but can you find any? After all it was your claim that they are all over the place.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 9, 2013 17:19:00 GMT
Someone is going about in circles here. Dude, your thesis: "ground source heat pump projects fail often", your link as well please. "But my Neighbour's Fence is Falling down" is NOT a link. You are misrepresenting what i said.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 9, 2013 17:32:34 GMT
Someone is going about in circles here. Dude, your thesis: "ground source heat pump projects fail often", your link as well please. "But my Neighbour's Fence is Falling down" is NOT a link. You are misrepresenting what i said. The inevitable backing up has started. . . .again. Its like lunar phases but quicker.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 9, 2013 17:36:37 GMT
Someone is going about in circles here. Dude, your thesis: "ground source heat pump projects fail often", your link as well please. "But my Neighbour's Fence is Falling down" is NOT a link. You are misrepresenting what i said. You made the extreme statement that heat pumps work perfectly well as supplied. Along the way I pointed out that Finland is not a perfect place and Finnish heat pumps are not special, and I used the example of terrible workmanship on my neighbours fences and the mistakes in my district heating installation to show that in Finland it is unreasonable to think that a heat pump installation is going to always work perfectly as supplied, where in any case the finnish forum has examples of installations that are not working as required. I also pointed out if you begin calling me a liar you can f**k yourself before i make the effort to provide information to you that you can find yourself. As a concession i suggested if you agree you are too stupid to find this finnish information in Finnish, then i will find it for you even though i will have to use Google translate and possibly my wifes assistance, where already you have told me it is impossible to find information using Google translate from the Finnish heat pump forums. As ever you are being unreasonable. You started off claiming the pumps always work perfectly as supplied and now while calling me a liar you want me to provide a link to show it was a daft claim of yours to begin with.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 9, 2013 18:00:04 GMT
As can be seen from the heat pump forums, heat pumps often do not work perfectly well as supplied. A common problem is constant operation of the pump in higher than designed for external temperatures, caused by an excessively cold ground loop due to the ground loop being unable to be sufficiently warmed by the source of heat. Someone is going about in circles here. Dude, your thesis: "ground source heat pump projects fail often", your link as well please. "But my Neighbour's Fence is Falling down" is NOT a link. Hmmmmmmmmm You are misrepresenting what i said. You made the extreme statement that heat pumps work perfectly well as supplied. Along the way I pointed out that Finland is not a perfect place and Finnish heat pumps are not special, and I used the example of terrible workmanship on my neighbours fences and the mistakes in my district heating installation to show that in Finland it is unreasonable to think that a heat pump installation is going to always work perfectly as supplied, where in any case the finnish forum has examples of installations that are not working as required. I also pointed out if you begin calling me a liar you can f**k yourself before i make the effort to provide information to you that you can find yourself. No you did not say that Andrew. You said they fail often and that problems are common. And you said proof of this common and often occurrence can be found online. As to Numno's statement "work perfectly as supplied" this was a statement I would interpret as relating to proficient and reputable contractors always supply anti-freeze as part of the installation in response to your discussion of these systems freezing up. So I am anxious to find out if they're not doing that is a common problem or not! I guess somebody needs to referee any argument you get into so you don't go about your usual word twisting and changing of goal posts to defend some of the outlandish claims you make. Is this an outlandish claim of yours? Its certainly is exhibiting the usual symptoms of you not being able to defend what comes out of you.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 9, 2013 18:03:57 GMT
So now the arch cu.nt of all c.unts changes the goal posts so that only installations from reputable suppliers can be considered
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Post by Andrew on Sept 9, 2013 18:17:59 GMT
So far in this conversation we have had the claim that finnish turnkey heat pump suppliers drill their own wells, seamlessly transformed into they use contractors
And no doubt i will be expected to somehow be unable to seamlessly transform a single f**king word of what i have said without the thingys of the internet going on about me changing the f**king goal posts when already the thingy of thingys has already tried to begin changing the goal posts.
No wonder people get murdered and wars begin
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Post by Andrew on Sept 9, 2013 18:22:32 GMT
Whats more i have already conceded that i did not have much of a point to make when i began this thread
>> you are probably right that I did not have much of a point to make in the first place.
>>However, there is still the basic observation that many cold climate ground source heat pumps cannot successfully operate without antifreeze in the ground loop.
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Post by numerouno on Sept 9, 2013 18:28:31 GMT
>>However, there is still the basic observation that many cold climate ground source heat pumps cannot successfully operate without antifreeze in the ground loop.
Again, antifreeze is expected and in fact required to be installed before and during the normal operation of those heat pumps up here.
If you have browsed any of the old British Empire heat pump sites, they would probably not have appreciated this fully.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 9, 2013 18:35:25 GMT
So now the arch cu.nt of all c.unts changes the goal posts so that only installations from reputable suppliers can be considered How can that be a goal post? A reputable supplier is very much a subjective issue. Failing to hire a reputable contractor is very clearly not a failure of a "standard practice" but is instead the fault of the homeowner. Thats a completely different type failing. It occurs most often when homeowners try to squeeze too much out of a dime and fail to follow even minimal guidance on hiring a reputable contractor. You appear to be in full retreat if you can't show links to these "often" failed systems and "common" problems and make even half a case for why a homeowner was not at fault for failing to exercise even minimal due diligence. Its perfectly clear to me Andrew the claim you made was a "design" claim, not a claim of poor workmanship or shabby materials which are the kind of stuff you get from fly by nights. Evidence you are full of it is you seem miffed that you can't include poor workmanship and shabby materials in defense of your claim that homeowners often have problems even when the systems are professionally designed and installed.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 9, 2013 19:47:29 GMT
>>However, there is still the basic observation that many cold climate ground source heat pumps cannot successfully operate without antifreeze in the ground loop.
Again, antifreeze is expected and in fact required to be installed before and during the normal operation of those heat pumps up here. If you have browsed any of the old British Empire heat pump sites, they would probably not have appreciated this fully. The fact that antifreeze is expected to be installed is irrelevant. If the water is below 0C the pump is operating less efficiently than it would do if the water was warmer, and that is an established principle of their operation with or without antifreeze. The fact is, if there is warmer water down there that you can use to heat your ground loop, the system will operate more economically than a system that can only work with antifreeze installed - provided of course you ignore the huge economic cost of damaging the system via freezing.
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Post by numerouno on Sept 9, 2013 21:01:25 GMT
If there is antifreeze in the system, the very point of 0C is totally irrelevant to the liquid and the operation in general. It is just like any other temperature that the antifreeze can handle. Andrew, nobody is using their heat pump without antifreeze here. Never. Got that finally? The pipe returning to the well from the house will likely be at below 0C in winter. What is important is the ability of the well to furnish thermal energy. The heat will come from underground 200-250 meters deep where the temps are typically as below: (the spring temps are the lowest by a couple of degrees).
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Post by icefisher on Sept 9, 2013 22:33:31 GMT
>>However, there is still the basic observation that many cold climate ground source heat pumps cannot successfully operate without antifreeze in the ground loop.
Again, antifreeze is expected and in fact required to be installed before and during the normal operation of those heat pumps up here. If you have browsed any of the old British Empire heat pump sites, they would probably not have appreciated this fully. The fact that antifreeze is expected to be installed is irrelevant. If the water is below 0C the pump is operating less efficiently than it would do if the water was warmer, and that is an established principle of their operation with or without antifreeze. The fact is, if there is warmer water down there that you can use to heat your ground loop, the system will operate more economically than a system that can only work with antifreeze installed - provided of course you ignore the huge economic cost of damaging the system via freezing. The problem Andrew is you have an incomplete view of efficiency! Efficiency is by real world application and not via some physics derived theoretical best case. Plenty of morons are buying in lock stock and barrel into sales pitches of incomes to be derived from wind machines operating 24/7 at their rated maximums. You are running all over the place making ignorant observations based upon whatever set of conditions suits your madness. The anti-freeze issue in heat pumps is one of design to increase efficiency! With antifreeze in the system you can design heat exchangers that get more heat out of the liquid for each circulation on the loop. Its not a matter of risking going below 0C and damaging your system. Your design efficiency is increased because YES you can design it intentionally to go below zero. The colder the return water, the more heat you can get out of the loop because colder water going back down in the loop will warm more than if the water were warmer. Without the antifreeze your design efficiency will in fact be limited. Unless of course you can invent a ground loop design that will work with ice, like a latent heat polynya (assuming you have finally figured out what that is). Then in addition to the more heat you can gain by operating the cold side colder you could gain more efficiency via the release of latent heat in the heat exchanger! But even thats not the end of the story, design efficiency has to be balanced against investment efficiency also. I am not experienced in these kinds of systems so I can't recommend how far one should go in seeking large temperature differentials in the loop. Bigger differentials will generally require bigger or more efficient heat exchangers and compressors, and longer ground loops.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 9, 2013 22:35:42 GMT
www.geojerry.com/earthloopantifreeze.htmlIn the majority of the USA and Canada, residential geothermal heat pump earth loops must be protected from freezing. Many people that have contacted us have asked, "If I bury my earth loop deeper, will I still need to use antifreeze to protect my earth loop from freezing?" This question tells us that there is a misconception of why the earth loop is subject to freezing. If your earth loop is installed above the frost line, yes it will freeze, but even if you install your earth loop below the frost line, the fluid may still freeze. Freezing in an earth loop is caused by the geothermal heat pump taking heat from the loop fluid, not the winter air temperatures. I couldn't find it in Finnish....so English will have to do. This is elementary stuff for crying out loud.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 9, 2013 22:46:36 GMT
www.geojerry.com/earthloopantifreeze.htmlIn the majority of the USA and Canada, residential geothermal heat pump earth loops must be protected from freezing. Many people that have contacted us have asked, "If I bury my earth loop deeper, will I still need to use antifreeze to protect my earth loop from freezing?" This question tells us that there is a misconception of why the earth loop is subject to freezing. If your earth loop is installed above the frost line, yes it will freeze, but even if you install your earth loop below the frost line, the fluid may still freeze. Freezing in an earth loop is caused by the geothermal heat pump taking heat from the loop fluid, not the winter air temperatures. I couldn't find it in Finnish....so English will have to do. This is elementary stuff for crying out loud. Tämä on perus juttuja ja huutaa ääneen! Wonder how well MS Word translator works.
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