|
Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2014 22:05:54 GMT
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2014 22:09:12 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2014 22:10:29 GMT
Seems to me the goal posts have moved from no external release of heat from the release of the heat of fusion But what is the explanation of that ' seems to you'. I have told you a gazillion times I was never saying what you are telling me I am saying.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2014 22:12:09 GMT
Yes Numerouno produced it in August. And?
|
|
|
Post by icefisher on Feb 1, 2014 22:18:48 GMT
Andrew: The phase change is actually very rapid. Sorry, you are wrong again, it is the slowness of the phase change at the constant temperature that protects the plants. An enormous amount of energy has to pass out of the cold water before it becomes colder than 0C. Because of the slowness of the phase change you can keep ice in an ice house in warm areas most of the way thru the summer Melting of ice is endothermic while freezing exothermic. Andrew you should not use melting as an analog for freezing. The freezing phase change can be far more rapid than the cooling rate. You can see supercooled water but never superwarmed ice. The rate of phase change of melting is confined to rate of warming of ice but the phase change of freezing is not. So you are wrong once again.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2014 22:20:07 GMT
Nobody ever said the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion is greater than the rate of heat release of warmer water. Sigurdur is disputing that. Why do you two never dispute between yourselves??? You must be aware he is disputing it and has been since august.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2014 23:31:17 GMT
Nobody ever said the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion is greater than the rate of heat release of warmer water. Sigurdur is disputing that. Why do you two never dispute between yourselves??? You must be aware he is disputing it and has been since august. I gave you the formula to figure it out Andrew.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2014 23:32:12 GMT
Icefisher as well if he is actually disputing what Latent Heat of freezing water accomplishes when used as an Ag aid.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 2, 2014 0:20:05 GMT
Icefisher as well if he is actually disputing what Latent Heat of freezing water accomplishes when used as an Ag aid. Icefisher is agreeing with me that warm water produces more btu's per second than freezing water produces per second. The total number of BTU's can be trillions. The issue is their environmental heating ability. You are fixated with the total number of BTU's
|
|
|
Post by icefisher on Feb 2, 2014 0:23:29 GMT
Nobody ever said the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion is greater than the rate of heat release of warmer water. Sigurdur is disputing that. Why do you two never dispute between yourselves??? You must be aware he is disputing it and has been since august. Thats because I phrased it wrong. The rate of heat release from a phase change is not tied to a single heat transfer process. My statement was addressing a single process. But I incorrectly stated it as "the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion" as opposed to saying that the conduction and radiation rates of water/ice does not directly change by freezing. But heat transfer occurs by more than one process. As water warms its evaporation rate increases. As water becomes less salty its evaporation rate increases. As water flows and spreads its heat transfer rate increases. Thus by every measure warmer water transfers more heat to the atmosphere. . . .and cools the water and the fruit faster. Sigurdur understands that when you have a dry 80F day and you spray 80F water into the orchard 80F fruit will cool. When you do the same thing on a dry 32F day with 32F water 32F fruit will not cool because of the freezing of the water unless it does temporarily due to the supercooling of water. In both cases a lot of heat will be transfered to the atmosphere and since 80F air holds more moisture than 32F air there will be more warming in the cooler atmosphere example due to condensation. The heat of vaporization for water is more than 7 times that of the heat of fusion for water, the water may be more important for transferring heat to a colder atmosphere than the freezing is. But there are exceptions to that. The freezing of supercooled water or act of brine being removed from salt water when freezing will result in a faster rate of heat transfer to the atmosphere. No doubt now you will jump back in to make a pointless point that water portion of the irrigation strategy is more important to "heat spikes" of the atmosphere than the freezing is and you will focus on a single static situation and ignore all the exceptions. What I take Sigurdur to be saying is the freezing portion of the strategy is more important to the protection of the fruit. Thats because it involves more net energy being applied to maintaining fruit temperatures and that the entire process does warm the cold dry atmosphere that drifts on the wind into the orchard which further offers protection to the fruit. That is all that is applicable to the entire issue and because you came into this discussion in a boneheaded manner and continue to be a bonehead, making totally irrelevant distinctions and sometimes unscientific distinctions, like the energy of latent heat is maintained internally and consumed in the expansion of ice, doesn't change the fact the strategy works and works better because of freezing.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 2, 2014 0:32:58 GMT
Sigurdur is disputing that. Why do you two never dispute between yourselves??? You must be aware he is disputing it and has been since august. Thats because I phrased it wrong. The rate of heat release from a phase change is not tied to a single heat transfer process. My statement was addressing a single process. But I incorrectly stated it as "the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion" as opposed to saying that the conduction and radiation rates of water/ice does not directly change by freezing. But heat transfer occurs by more than one process. As water warms its evaporation rate increases. As water becomes less salty its evaporation rate increases. As water flows and spreads its heat transfer rate increases. Thus by every measure warmer water transfers more heat to the atmosphere. . . .and cools the water and the fruit faster. Sigurdur understands that when you have a dry 80F day and you spray 80F water into the orchard 80F fruit will cool. When you do the same thing on a dry 32F day with 32F water 32F fruit will not cool because of the freezing of the water unless it does temporarily due to the supercooling of water. In both cases a lot of heat will be transfered to the atmosphere and since 80F air holds more moisture than 32F air there will be more warming in the cooler atmosphere example due to condensation. The heat of vaporization for water is more than 7 times that of the heat of fusion for water, the water may be more important for transferring heat to a colder atmosphere than the freezing is. But there are exceptions to that. The freezing of supercooled water or act of brine being removed from salt water when freezing will result in a faster rate of heat transfer to the atmosphere. No doubt now you will jump back in to make a pointless point that water portion of the irrigation strategy is more important to "heat spikes" of the atmosphere than the freezing is and you will focus on a single static situation and ignore all the exceptions. What I take Sigurdur to be saying is the freezing portion of the strategy is more important to the protection of the fruit. Thats because it involves more net energy being applied to maintaining fruit temperatures and that the entire process does warm the cold dry atmosphere that drifts on the wind into the orchard which further offers protection to the fruit. That is all that is applicable to the entire issue and because you came into this discussion in a boneheaded manner and continue to be a bonehead, making totally irrelevant distinctions and sometimes unscientific distinctions, like the energy of latent heat is maintained internally and consumed in the expansion of ice, doesn't change the fact the strategy works and works better because of freezing. Idiot
|
|
|
Post by icefisher on Feb 2, 2014 0:35:32 GMT
Thats because I phrased it wrong. The rate of heat release from a phase change is not tied to a single heat transfer process. My statement was addressing a single process. But I incorrectly stated it as "the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion" as opposed to saying that the conduction and radiation rates of water/ice does not directly change by freezing. But heat transfer occurs by more than one process. As water warms its evaporation rate increases. As water becomes less salty its evaporation rate increases. As water flows and spreads its heat transfer rate increases. Thus by every measure warmer water transfers more heat to the atmosphere. . . .and cools the water and the fruit faster. Sigurdur understands that when you have a dry 80F day and you spray 80F water into the orchard 80F fruit will cool. When you do the same thing on a dry 32F day with 32F water 32F fruit will not cool because of the freezing of the water unless it does temporarily due to the supercooling of water. In both cases a lot of heat will be transfered to the atmosphere and since 80F air holds more moisture than 32F air there will be more warming in the cooler atmosphere example due to condensation. The heat of vaporization for water is more than 7 times that of the heat of fusion for water, the water may be more important for transferring heat to a colder atmosphere than the freezing is. But there are exceptions to that. The freezing of supercooled water or act of brine being removed from salt water when freezing will result in a faster rate of heat transfer to the atmosphere. No doubt now you will jump back in to make a pointless point that water portion of the irrigation strategy is more important to "heat spikes" of the atmosphere than the freezing is and you will focus on a single static situation and ignore all the exceptions. What I take Sigurdur to be saying is the freezing portion of the strategy is more important to the protection of the fruit. Thats because it involves more net energy being applied to maintaining fruit temperatures and that the entire process does warm the cold dry atmosphere that drifts on the wind into the orchard which further offers protection to the fruit. That is all that is applicable to the entire issue and because you came into this discussion in a boneheaded manner and continue to be a bonehead, making totally irrelevant distinctions and sometimes unscientific distinctions, like the energy of latent heat is maintained internally and consumed in the expansion of ice, doesn't change the fact the strategy works and works better because of freezing. Idiot Sounds like we are on the last issue of dispute.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 2, 2014 0:38:46 GMT
Sounds like we are on the last issue of dispute. Probably not because if I ever get an intelligent response from IFAS you will start your baloney all over again.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Feb 2, 2014 1:12:09 GMT
Sigurdur is disputing that. Why do you two never dispute between yourselves??? You must be aware he is disputing it and has been since august. Thats because I phrased it wrong. The rate of heat release from a phase change is not tied to a single heat transfer process. My statement was addressing a single process. But I incorrectly stated it as "the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion" as opposed to saying that the conduction and radiation rates of water/ice does not directly change by freezing. But heat transfer occurs by more than one process. As water warms its evaporation rate increases. As water becomes less salty its evaporation rate increases. As water flows and spreads its heat transfer rate increases. Thus by every measure warmer water transfers more heat to the atmosphere. . . .and cools the water and the fruit faster. Sigurdur understands that when you have a dry 80F day and you spray 80F water into the orchard 80F fruit will cool. When you do the same thing on a dry 32F day with 32F water 32F fruit will not cool because of the freezing of the water unless it does temporarily due to the supercooling of water. In both cases a lot of heat will be transfered to the atmosphere and since 80F air holds more moisture than 32F air there will be more warming in the cooler atmosphere example due to condensation. The heat of vaporization for water is more than 7 times that of the heat of fusion for water, the water may be more important for transferring heat to a colder atmosphere than the freezing is. But there are exceptions to that. The freezing of supercooled water or act of brine being removed from salt water when freezing will result in a faster rate of heat transfer to the atmosphere. No doubt now you will jump back in to make a pointless point that water portion of the irrigation strategy is more important to "heat spikes" of the atmosphere than the freezing is and you will focus on a single static situation and ignore all the exceptions. What I take Sigurdur to be saying is the freezing portion of the strategy is more important to the protection of the fruit. Thats because it involves more net energy being applied to maintaining fruit temperatures and that the entire process does warm the cold dry atmosphere that drifts on the wind into the orchard which further offers protection to the fruit. That is all that is applicable to the entire issue and because you came into this discussion in a boneheaded manner and continue to be a bonehead, making totally irrelevant distinctions and sometimes unscientific distinctions, like the energy of latent heat is maintained internally and consumed in the expansion of ice, doesn't change the fact the strategy works and works better because of freezing. Icefisher.....you got it. The whole process is a demonstration of the usefulness of latent heat to prevent crop damage.
|
|
|
Post by Andrew on Feb 2, 2014 1:16:28 GMT
Thats because I phrased it wrong. The rate of heat release from a phase change is not tied to a single heat transfer process. My statement was addressing a single process. But I incorrectly stated it as "the rate of heat release of the heat of fusion" as opposed to saying that the conduction and radiation rates of water/ice does not directly change by freezing. But heat transfer occurs by more than one process. As water warms its evaporation rate increases. As water becomes less salty its evaporation rate increases. As water flows and spreads its heat transfer rate increases. Thus by every measure warmer water transfers more heat to the atmosphere. . . .and cools the water and the fruit faster. Sigurdur understands that when you have a dry 80F day and you spray 80F water into the orchard 80F fruit will cool. When you do the same thing on a dry 32F day with 32F water 32F fruit will not cool because of the freezing of the water unless it does temporarily due to the supercooling of water. In both cases a lot of heat will be transfered to the atmosphere and since 80F air holds more moisture than 32F air there will be more warming in the cooler atmosphere example due to condensation. The heat of vaporization for water is more than 7 times that of the heat of fusion for water, the water may be more important for transferring heat to a colder atmosphere than the freezing is. But there are exceptions to that. The freezing of supercooled water or act of brine being removed from salt water when freezing will result in a faster rate of heat transfer to the atmosphere. No doubt now you will jump back in to make a pointless point that water portion of the irrigation strategy is more important to "heat spikes" of the atmosphere than the freezing is and you will focus on a single static situation and ignore all the exceptions. What I take Sigurdur to be saying is the freezing portion of the strategy is more important to the protection of the fruit. Thats because it involves more net energy being applied to maintaining fruit temperatures and that the entire process does warm the cold dry atmosphere that drifts on the wind into the orchard which further offers protection to the fruit. That is all that is applicable to the entire issue and because you came into this discussion in a boneheaded manner and continue to be a bonehead, making totally irrelevant distinctions and sometimes unscientific distinctions, like the energy of latent heat is maintained internally and consumed in the expansion of ice, doesn't change the fact the strategy works and works better because of freezing. Icefisher.....you got it. The whole process is a demonstration of the usefulness of latent heat to prevent crop damage. Amazing! The heat science of the last two hundred years demolished by a couple of guys without an education. In America anybody can be great. What a country!
|
|