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Post by sigurdur on Aug 17, 2014 23:47:51 GMT
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 1:08:10 GMT
The atmosphere at and around the tropopause is often supersaturated with water vapor. When an aircraft flies through this supersaturated air dumping hot gases with even more water vapor and causing a large pressure change over the wings, the effect is to cause the water vapor to condense and immediately freeze (sublimate) into ice crystals. These condensation trails (contrails) in supersaturated air are known as persistent contrails and in some cases continue seeding the formation of further crystals into relatively wide bands of cirrus. If the atmosphere that the aircraft flies through is close to saturation but not fully saturated, then the condensation trail will form in the same way but the ice crystals will after a few seconds to minutes sublimate back to vapor. These condensation trails are known as non-persistent contrails. If the air is relatively low humidity then the extra water vapor from the engine exhaust remains as water vapor and no condensation trail is visible. There are many aircraft flying overhead every day - it is only on high humidity days that contrails will form. In cases where there are mountain waves but the air has remained super-saturated in the tops of the waves as they have cooled adiabatically, an aircraft flying through the waves maintaining level flight will show persistent condensation trails in the cold wave tops and non-persistent or no condensation trails in the troughs between the waves. This results in a dashed line of contrails from the aircraft. Trying to make these contrails into something suspicious requires ignorance and additional stupidity in the believers, and malfeasance in those spreading the misinformation. If a 'professor' spreads this type of infantile stupidity (s)he should be removed from post and any accreditation removed together with their tinfoil hat.
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 18, 2014 1:42:49 GMT
nautonnier: I can't be sure that there isn't some experimentation going on. I do NOT believe it is widespread at this point.
Back in 1980, we had a very dry spring. Around the 10th of August, it started to rain, and wow did it rain. 27 inches in a little over 2 months. Left a lot of crop out in the field.
OK....here is the kicker.
My 2nd Cousin, who grew up 1/2 mile from me was taking flying lessons to be a commercial pilot. He flew some of the cloud seeding experiments that fall. UND school of Meteorology denied they were seeding the clouds, Paul said it was 100% that there was cloud seeding going on. A military contract.
When the state started asking serious questions, and threatening FOI requests, the seeding stopped and the rain stopped. But by then, the damage was done. Rotten potatoes, sprouted grains, unbelievable wear and tear on machinery. I bought a recirculating batch dryer that year that knocked the sprouts off the kernel. This was before the grain trade figured out falling numbers. The dryer paid for itself just in the lack of discounts.
So, while I don't believe this is being done widely, I do think it is being done on a sporatic basis, based on what I know about 1980.
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 2:12:10 GMT
nautonnier: I can't be sure that there isn't some experimentation going on. I do NOT believe it is widespread at this point. Back in 1980, we had a very dry spring. Around the 10th of August, it started to rain, and wow did it rain. 27 inches in a little over 2 months. Left a lot of crop out in the field. OK....here is the kicker. My 2nd Cousin, who grew up 1/2 mile from me was taking flying lessons to be a commercial pilot. He flew some of the cloud seeding experiments that fall. UND school of Meteorology denied they were seeding the clouds, Paul said it was 100% that there was cloud seeding going on. A military contract. When the state started asking serious questions, and threatening FOI requests, the seeding stopped and the rain stopped. But by then, the damage was done. Rotten potatoes, sprouted grains, unbelievable wear and tear on machinery. I bought a recirculating batch dryer that year that knocked the sprouts off the kernel. This was before the grain trade figured out falling numbers. The dryer paid for itself just in the lack of discounts. So, while I don't believe this is being done widely, I do think it is being done on a sporatic basis, based on what I know about 1980. With the cost of fuel for civil aircraft operators there is absolutely no way that they would or could carry anything to 'spray'. They are doing everything they can to reduce weight. The aircraft themselves are not equipped to be able to 'spray' and in many cases cannot even dump fuel in an emergency. It may be that there have been experiments in the past and China has been experimenting with cloud seeding, and people have tried ways of 'steering hurricanes' but these tend to be local and are not the contrails people are claiming are 'chem trails'. All you need to do is watch aircraft turning round at any airport in the country and you will not see any spraying equipment or tankers refilling tanks etc. I assure you that there are people who are extremely interested in aircraft and their operation who would pick up any different equipment immediately. They can trace the aircraft id through many changes even following CIA rendition aircraft. (see sites like Airliners.net ) The other group that would become aware very rapidly and not keep things quiet are the air traffic controllers who control all the traffic in their sector and an aircraft doing something that is not normal route flying would be noticed very rapidly. Finally, tell people to invest in the smart phone app that lets you point your phone at an aircraft and it will display its Callsign, departure point and destination. Aircraft now carry a unique ID which is broadcast around twice a second this is going to be mandatory for all including military aircraft, or they are not allowed into the airspace. Nowadays aircraft cannot just fly around they all have to be 'known' unless they are small puddle jumpers and that is not the type that the chemtrail tin hats are for.
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Post by sigurdur on Aug 18, 2014 4:46:36 GMT
In regards to chem trails, those are water vapor.
I am talking about actual experiments conducted by govt.
There is no way a commercial airline is doing this.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 18, 2014 6:29:10 GMT
tell people to invest in the smart phone app that lets you point your phone at an aircraft and it will display its Callsign, departure point and destination. Aircraft now carry a unique ID which is broadcast around twice a second this is going to be mandatory for all including military aircraft, or they are not allowed into the airspace. Nowadays aircraft cannot just fly around they all have to be 'known' unless they are small puddle jumpers and that is not the type that the chemtrail tin hats are for. I am fairly confidant those cell phone applications are only using the information that ATC believes is correct or would want you to believe is correct. Aircraft are not currently able to transmit their identification to ATC. All they do is transmit a code given to them by ATC which they only get when they contact ATC. Currently military and civilian systems are not coordinated. Civilian systems are using technology developed around the time of WW2. At a guess when you point your phone at the aircraft the picture you see on the phone via your camera is the phone applications guess via your position and the position of aircraft that is available on the internet. So if so, it works fine for two aircraft flying in different directions but not very well for two aircraft travelling in a similar direction
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Post by glennkoks on Aug 18, 2014 6:54:13 GMT
Sigurdur,
I have a healthy amount of distrust for our government. But I think the entire contrail/chemtrail conspiracy theory is nonsense. Contrail has been around far to long. Just look at old photos of the Flying Fortresses, German ME 262 or V2 rockets.
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 9:21:38 GMT
tell people to invest in the smart phone app that lets you point your phone at an aircraft and it will display its Callsign, departure point and destination. Aircraft now carry a unique ID which is broadcast around twice a second this is going to be mandatory for all including military aircraft, or they are not allowed into the airspace. Nowadays aircraft cannot just fly around they all have to be 'known' unless they are small puddle jumpers and that is not the type that the chemtrail tin hats are for. I am fairly confidant those cell phone applications are only using the information that ATC believes is correct or would want you to believe is correct. Aircraft are not currently able to transmit their identification to ATC. All they do is transmit a code given to them by ATC which they only get when they contact ATC. Currently military and civilian systems are not coordinated. Civilian systems are using technology developed around the time of WW2. At a guess when you point your phone at the aircraft the picture you see on the phone via your camera is the phone applications guess via your position and the position of aircraft that is available on the internet. So if so, it works fine for two aircraft flying in different directions but not very well for two aircraft travelling in a similar direction "Aircraft are not currently able to transmit their identification to ATC. All they do is transmit a code given to them by ATC which they only get when they contact ATC."
This is not true of the ADS-B/ Mode S transmissions or of SATCOM transmissions. The FAA is moving rapidly to surveillance only using ADS-B, expect carriage of ADS-B/Mode S to be mandatory world wide as it is in Europe. Aircraft have a hard coded identity in their avionics rather like a MAC Address as well as an ATC assigned secondary radar identity.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 18, 2014 9:55:38 GMT
The point is there is no way, or at least it is very very highly improbable for a ground station like a cellphone to pick up direct transmissions from an aircraft that can be used to identify that aircraft. The transmissions to satellites will only be in the form of a very highly focused upwards pointing energy beam that is likely to be irregularly available - particularly in the landing and take off phases. That was my theory anyway....but " Plane Finder AR blends the data from our Plane Finder virtual radar apps with the Augmented Reality capabilities of the iPhone to show you what is flying overhead. The app is fun to use and is very dynamic. It will work in all areas for which we have coverage. Please check our web map at www.planefinder.net or ask a question via my.pinkfroot.com to make sure we cover your area. We are adding feeds all of the time so it’s always worth checking back in regularly. Plane Finder AR works by picking up ADS-B plane feeds used by all commercial planes to transmit their name, position, destination and lots more." The Iphone is not directly using an ADS-B plane feed. Those have to be obtained by the application provider and provided to the internet. Even so I agree the satellite tech is way ahead of what I was thinking of when I replied. However ADS-B is not going to be mandatory for all aircraft in Europe. "European mandate for ADS-B OUT requires 1090ES ADS-B Out with a Diversity Mode-S transponder by 1/8/15 for new aircraft and 12/7/17 for retrofits, and only applies to aircraft >12,500lbs or max cruise >250kts TAS."
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Post by flearider on Aug 18, 2014 10:04:13 GMT
you have to think a lot of planes use bio fuel .. does this have any more or less of an effect ? and how many haarp stations do they have now ?
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 14:13:22 GMT
The Iphone is not directly using an ADS-B plane feed. Those have to be obtained by the application provider and provided to the internet. Even so I agree the satellite tech is way ahead of what I was thinking of when I replied. However ADS-B is not going to be mandatory for all aircraft in Europe. "European mandate for ADS-B OUT requires 1090ES ADS-B Out with a Diversity Mode-S transponder by 1/8/15 for new aircraft and 12/7/17 for retrofits, and only applies to aircraft >12,500lbs or max cruise >250kts TAS." There are multiple aircraft trackers available that use all the available information and build aircraft tracks from them, often more successfully than the ATC systems. The weight limit as I said in one of my earlier posts allows puddle jumpers but not a lot else definitely not something that would be able to 'spray' a large area from high altitude. If you really think that aircraft can operate in mandatory control airspace without quite a few people and organizations knowing who they are and what they are doing you really need a tinfoil hat. That includes military operations.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 18, 2014 15:37:53 GMT
The Iphone is not directly using an ADS-B plane feed. Those have to be obtained by the application provider and provided to the internet. Even so I agree the satellite tech is way ahead of what I was thinking of when I replied. However ADS-B is not going to be mandatory for all aircraft in Europe. "European mandate for ADS-B OUT requires 1090ES ADS-B Out with a Diversity Mode-S transponder by 1/8/15 for new aircraft and 12/7/17 for retrofits, and only applies to aircraft >12,500lbs or max cruise >250kts TAS." There are multiple aircraft trackers available that use all the available information and build aircraft tracks from them, often more successfully than the ATC systems. The weight limit as I said in one of my earlier posts allows puddle jumpers but not a lot else definitely not something that would be able to 'spray' a large area from high altitude. If you really think that aircraft can operate in mandatory control airspace without quite a few people and organizations knowing who they are and what they are doing you really need a tinfoil hat. That includes military operations. Even in controlled airspace you do not have to be mode S compliant to fly VFR in Europe and you do not have to have ADS-B. The system relies in the first instance upon the pilot identifying themselves and doing as they are asked to do. Pilots want to keep their ratings and so will do their utmost to comply with ATC. Future systems may well bolt the aircraft id to transmissions but we are not there yet.
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 15:59:55 GMT
There are multiple aircraft trackers available that use all the available information and build aircraft tracks from them, often more successfully than the ATC systems. The weight limit as I said in one of my earlier posts allows puddle jumpers but not a lot else definitely not something that would be able to 'spray' a large area from high altitude. If you really think that aircraft can operate in mandatory control airspace without quite a few people and organizations knowing who they are and what they are doing you really need a tinfoil hat. That includes military operations. Even in controlled airspace you do not have to be mode S compliant to fly VFR in Europe and you do not have to have ADS-B. The system relies in the first instance upon the pilot identifying themselves and doing as they are asked to do. Pilots want to keep their ratings and so will do their utmost to comply with ATC. Future systems may well bolt the aircraft id to transmissions but we are not there yet. You cannot fly VFR in controlled airspace in Europe as that airspace is mandatory IFR, unless it is 'special VFR' by particular arrangement with the airspace controlling authority and flying an agreed procedure at an agreed time. Current systems do a complete code/callsign linkage based on the aircraft flight plan and surveillance identifying the aircraft code whether secondary or ADS-B - this radar to flight data pairing and even correlating primary radar tracks to flight plans has been used in the US and UK since the early 1970's. The radar tracking then updates the flight database with the actual progress of the aircraft. With ADS-B aircraft can be tracked from power on of the transponder before they taxi. With the increase in types of surveillance, ADS-B, ADS-C, multi-lateration, primary and secondary radar etc., the surveillance systems correlate every position report from each system and create a track for the aircraft using systems called multi-sensor trackers which are replacing the old 1970s mosaiced radar surveillance. All these systems are in use now, the equipage of some aircraft is not quite up to par but the mandates for aircraft to equip are in place.
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Post by Andrew on Aug 18, 2014 16:31:24 GMT
Even in controlled airspace you do not have to be mode S compliant to fly VFR in Europe and you do not have to have ADS-B. The system relies in the first instance upon the pilot identifying themselves and doing as they are asked to do. Pilots want to keep their ratings and so will do their utmost to comply with ATC. Future systems may well bolt the aircraft id to transmissions but we are not there yet. You cannot fly VFR in controlled airspace in Europe as that airspace is mandatory IFR, unless it is 'special VFR' by particular arrangement with the airspace controlling authority and flying an agreed procedure at an agreed time. Current systems do a complete code/callsign linkage based on the aircraft flight plan and surveillance identifying the aircraft code whether secondary or ADS-B - this radar to flight data pairing and even correlating primary radar tracks to flight plans has been used in the US and UK since the early 1970's. The radar tracking then updates the flight database with the actual progress of the aircraft. With ADS-B aircraft can be tracked from power on of the transponder before they taxi. With the increase in types of surveillance, ADS-B, ADS-C, multi-lateration, primary and secondary radar etc., the surveillance systems correlate every position report from each system and create a track for the aircraft using systems called multi-sensor trackers which are replacing the old 1970s mosaiced radar surveillance. All these systems are in use now, the equipage of some aircraft is not quite up to par but the mandates for aircraft to equip are in place. There is no such place as Europe when it comes to ATC requirements, and no such thing as one single controlled airspace type. Prearranged flight plans just give you a far better chance of entering controlled airspace, where clearance is not automatic upon request. Yes for sure big brother wants to watch you but it depends upon where you are, what type of controlled airspace you are in, what your aircraft is fitted with, what is working, the mood of the controller and so forth.
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Post by nautonnier on Aug 18, 2014 18:44:28 GMT
You cannot fly VFR in controlled airspace in Europe as that airspace is mandatory IFR, unless it is 'special VFR' by particular arrangement with the airspace controlling authority and flying an agreed procedure at an agreed time. Current systems do a complete code/callsign linkage based on the aircraft flight plan and surveillance identifying the aircraft code whether secondary or ADS-B - this radar to flight data pairing and even correlating primary radar tracks to flight plans has been used in the US and UK since the early 1970's. The radar tracking then updates the flight database with the actual progress of the aircraft. With ADS-B aircraft can be tracked from power on of the transponder before they taxi. With the increase in types of surveillance, ADS-B, ADS-C, multi-lateration, primary and secondary radar etc., the surveillance systems correlate every position report from each system and create a track for the aircraft using systems called multi-sensor trackers which are replacing the old 1970s mosaiced radar surveillance. All these systems are in use now, the equipage of some aircraft is not quite up to par but the mandates for aircraft to equip are in place. There is no such place as Europe when it comes to ATC requirements, and no such thing as one single controlled airspace type. Prearranged flight plans just give you a far better chance of entering controlled airspace, where clearance is not automatic upon request. Yes for sure big brother wants to watch you but it depends upon where you are, what type of controlled airspace you are in, what your aircraft is fitted with, what is working, the mood of the controller and so forth. If you want to be pedantic Andrew (as if) - the region is the countries within the European Civil Aviation Conference ECAC that mainly but not all are contributers to the pan national body called EUROCONTROL plus a few hangers on. EUROCONTROL is an advisory body so all its recommendations are put into law by either the transport ministers of the ECAC states or by the European Commission (or both). I can assure you - from long experience - that the cooperation between states in air traffic management is more than you would suspect. If you do not flight plan then you will not be allowed into controlled airspace with the possible exception being military aircraft following "operational air traffic" rules but then they have been cleared into the airspace by military control authorities. The ECAC states all subscribe to something called the Originating Region Code Allocation Method (ORCAM) where once an identity code is allocated to an aircraft it will retain it as far as possible for its entire flight within the ECAC airspace. The entire airspace is now split into cooperating Functional Airspace Blocks that comprise several countries, with harmonized rules, routes and procedures. It is not the patchwork quilt you seem to think it is.
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