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Post by Ratty on Mar 19, 2017 23:06:46 GMT
youtu.be/vc6CHHrCV7gThis guy is hilarious, you may see where he's going with it about half way through.... Great take on AGW. Another guy who has been around ..... 72yo. He's been there, seen that. Not much beats life experience.
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Post by nautonnier on Mar 25, 2017 16:30:25 GMT
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Post by sigurdur on Mar 26, 2017 18:40:40 GMT
clivebest.com/blog/?p=7591How would you measure the temperature of the earth from mars? Well you could measure the infra red spectrum of the earth and then fit it to a black body spectrum to derive T. If you did that you would get an answer of about 252K, unchanging with time. The greenhouse effect keeps the effective average surface warmer at 288K, but what does this actually mean and how can we measure if it changes? This is not a simple question.
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Post by nautonnier on Mar 26, 2017 20:02:51 GMT
clivebest.com/blog/?p=7591How would you measure the temperature of the earth from mars? Well you could measure the infra red spectrum of the earth and then fit it to a black body spectrum to derive T. If you did that you would get an answer of about 252K, unchanging with time. The greenhouse effect keeps the effective average surface warmer at 288K, but what does this actually mean and how can we measure if it changes? This is not a simple question. "The greenhouse effect keeps the effective average surface warmer at 288K, but what does this actually mean and how can we measure if it changes?"I have seen this claimed but as CO2 doesn't warm the real world - and the hydrologic cycle is a heat engine cooling the Earth. Can someone give a observational based explanation for this claim?
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Post by sigurdur on Mar 26, 2017 21:24:44 GMT
The hydrological cycle moves heat. It doesn't create nor dispense heat.
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Post by Ratty on Mar 26, 2017 22:55:02 GMT
clivebest.com/blog/?p=7591How would you measure the temperature of the earth from mars? Well you could measure the infra red spectrum of the earth and then fit it to a black body spectrum to derive T. If you did that you would get an answer of about 252K, unchanging with time. The greenhouse effect keeps the effective average surface warmer at 288K, but what does this actually mean and how can we measure if it changes? This is not a simple question. I've seen a few simple answers .....
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Post by nonentropic on Mar 27, 2017 0:26:00 GMT
So to paraphrase we can see the temperature on Mars and we could send a satellite to Mars to accurately determine the Temperature of Earth and sack the lions share of the climate industry on earth. So we are to close to it to get a good hold on the climate here.
On this basis we should do weather forecasting for the Universe.
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Post by nautonnier on Mar 27, 2017 0:28:10 GMT
The hydrological cycle moves heat. It doesn't create nor dispense heat. The hydrologic cycle moves heat from the surface to high altitudes where it is then radiated to space. So that cools the surface. Where is this idea that so called 'green house' gases 'raise the temperature' of the atmosphere? A photon moves at 186,000 miles per second 'delay' at that speed is not a long time. It is a very short bagatelle game. Oceans are not heated by 'back radiation' and they cover >70% of the Earth's surface. Hard surfaces may be heated but as their temperature increases their radiation of heat increases by the 4th power of the temperature so they start radiating more heat than was incident on them. CO2 molecules do scatter infrared photons. But they also take on kinetic energy from collisions with N2 and O2 molecules and radiate that energy as infrared photons as CO2 is a radiative molecule. The only mechanism I can see for keeping the atmosphere warm is latent heat release by the hydrologic cycle as water condenses and freezes - this is not the so called greenhouse effect.
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Post by sigurdur on Mar 27, 2017 3:25:12 GMT
It is the actual mass of water in the atmosphere that keeps us warmer. Being H2O is a very different animal. CO2 does not have the capacity to actually store heat. H2O vapor does.
It is actually pretty simple. H2O vapor not only radiates, but stores as well.
I know of no other gas that exhibits those characteristics. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but I have not read about it and I am getting longer in the tooth.
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Post by douglavers on Mar 27, 2017 3:34:03 GMT
Sigurdur
When you say "H2O vapour" do you mean clouds aka condensed gaseous H2O?
I thought gas state water would store heat like any other gas molecule, but not very much. The condensed version is a much more interesting animal!!
I once gave a talk on the two most extraordinary liquids; liquid He3 was one, water the other.
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Post by sigurdur on Mar 27, 2017 4:04:05 GMT
No, the actual vapor. Clouds do contain a combination of both, depending on the Specific Humidity levels.
Liquid H3. Tell me more!
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Post by douglavers on Mar 27, 2017 9:26:09 GMT
Superfluid liquid He3 at about 2 degK:
Zero viscosity: if you start it swirling, it will [it is thought] swirl forever unless it evaporates. If a little fountain is created, [not sure how] it will keep on fountaining [?] apparently. Not sure how you create the fountain.
Gravity defying: it will rapidly creep up and over the side of any container where it can fall to a lower level.It will also rapidly drain through any container hole larger than atomic dimensions!
All the helium atoms are at the same temperature; it is a "quantum fluid". I have forgotten too much physics to explain that!
But water is even stranger.
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Post by Ratty on Mar 27, 2017 10:18:41 GMT
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Post by nautonnier on Mar 27, 2017 11:03:46 GMT
Debbie will be taking more than 200 times humanity's entire electrical generation capacity per day from the ocean and radiating it. Now look at the weather system between Australia and Antarctica think of the energy driving the hydrologic cycle. For the doubters: "Method 1) - Total energy released through cloud/rain formation: An average hurricane produces 1.5 cm/day (0.6 inches/day) of rain inside a circle of radius 665 km (360 n.mi) (Gray 1981). (More rain falls in the inner portion of hurricane around the eyewall, less in the outer rainbands.) Converting this to a volume of rain gives 2.1 x 1016 cm3/day. A cubic cm of rain weighs 1 gm. Using the latent heat of condensation, this amount of rain produced gives 5.2 x 1019 Joules/day or 6.0 x 1014 Watts.
This is equivalent to 200 times the world-wide electrical generating capacity - an incredible amount of energy produced!"www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/D7.html
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Post by sigurdur on Mar 27, 2017 13:55:31 GMT
Superfluid liquid He3 at about 2 degK: Zero viscosity: if you start it swirling, it will [it is thought] swirl forever unless it evaporates. If a little fountain is created, [not sure how] it will keep on fountaining [?] apparently. Not sure how you create the fountain. Gravity defying: it will rapidly creep up and over the side of any container where it can fall to a lower level.It will also rapidly drain through any container hole larger than atomic dimensions! All the helium atoms are at the same temperature; it is a "quantum fluid". I have forgotten too much physics to explain that! But water is even stranger. Thank you. I had forgotten about He3. Your explanation tickled a few synapses. I agree in regards to water. I have always been fascinated by it. It is so very unique!
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