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Post by icefisher on Oct 6, 2018 5:56:00 GMT
Sounds like this operation needs a Trumpian tweet! Do you WANT funding or not? the tweet was to say what a great relationship we were having.
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Post by Ratty on Oct 6, 2018 12:56:33 GMT
Do you WANT funding or not? the tweet was to say what a great relationship we were having.
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Post by icefisher on Oct 6, 2018 13:57:46 GMT
the tweet was to say what a great relationship we were having. So who is on the plaque? Is that a notable ancestor?
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Post by blustnmtn on Oct 6, 2018 15:22:08 GMT
So who is on the plaque? Is that a notable ancestor? Icefisher, knowing the habits of that breed of vermin🐀...probably chewed through from the back and got stuck!
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Post by missouriboy on Oct 6, 2018 15:46:40 GMT
So who is on the plaque? Is that a notable ancestor? Icefisher, knowing the habits of that breed of vermin🐀...probably chewed through from the back and got stuck! Drat!
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Post by duwayne on Oct 6, 2018 16:37:27 GMT
Icefisher, there are several things in your posts that I question, but I don't have time to speak to all of them. I asked about stratification because of your statement in an earlier post that said "Water vapor is lighter than air and water is heavier than air. Water vapor rises and water falls in the air, in general." If "water vapor rises" because it has a lower molecular weight, then wouldn't other gases rise and fall based on molecular weight? And, if so, wouldn't the gases tend to stratify based on molecular weight? In a perfectly still condition they will stratify. Its kind of like adding some instant ice tea mix to water. Spoon it in and you don't even have to stir the water for it to diffuse throughout water in the glass. But leave sit undisturbed for a few days and you begin to see stratification. agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2009RG000301The above reference goes into how water vapor acts to initiate convection and how its not the case that the water vapor reaches some altitude where it all condenses. Essentially it attempts to sum up the state of science and the monitoring going on. It also talks about falling condensed water (hydrometeors) Icefisher, in a perfectly still condition gases will not stratify. "Unlike solids and liquids, gases have the property of diffusion. Regardless of different densities, different gases mix each other rapidly as their molecules can move between each other. The gap between gas molecules is widely spaced. So the Earth's atmosphere is composed of different gases with different densities. Due to the diffusivity of gases being attracted by the gravity, every single gas diffuses equably through the whole atmosphere, regardless of different densities." That is a quote from a Thermal Engineer which can be at this link. www.quora.com/Why-all-the-gases-in-atmosphere-gets-mixed-even-though-their-specific-gravities-Densities-are-differentThere are thousands of sources which say the same thing. This is taught in all basic college physics courses. I'm disappointed that Nautonnier didn't jump in to correct your error.
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Post by icefisher on Oct 6, 2018 17:22:18 GMT
In a perfectly still condition they will stratify. Its kind of like adding some instant ice tea mix to water. Spoon it in and you don't even have to stir the water for it to diffuse throughout water in the glass. But leave sit undisturbed for a few days and you begin to see stratification. agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2009RG000301The above reference goes into how water vapor acts to initiate convection and how its not the case that the water vapor reaches some altitude where it all condenses. Essentially it attempts to sum up the state of science and the monitoring going on. It also talks about falling condensed water (hydrometeors) Icefisher, in a perfectly still condition gases will not stratify. "Unlike solids and liquids, gases have the property of diffusion. Regardless of different densities, different gases mix each other rapidly as their molecules can move between each other. The gap between gas molecules is widely spaced. So the Earth's atmosphere is composed of different gases with different densities. Due to the diffusivity of gases being attracted by the gravity, every single gas diffuses equably through the whole atmosphere, regardless of different densities." That is a quote from a Thermal Engineer which can be at this link. www.quora.com/Why-all-the-gases-in-atmosphere-gets-mixed-even-though-their-specific-gravities-Densities-are-differentThere are thousands of sources which say the same thing. This is taught in all basic college physics courses. I'm disappointed that Nautonnier didn't jump in to correct your error. Well perhaps in your interpretation of what I said, I was in error. But when I am talking about stratification I am not talking about a hard line. You don't see hard lines in liquids either but you see stratification. And in fact our atmosphere is stratified with stratification increasing the higher you go because of the lack of motion up there.
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Post by Ratty on Oct 7, 2018 0:20:24 GMT
So who is on the plaque? Is that a notable ancestor? See picture thread.
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Post by duwayne on Oct 7, 2018 20:12:42 GMT
Icefisher, in a perfectly still condition gases will not stratify. "Unlike solids and liquids, gases have the property of diffusion. Regardless of different densities, different gases mix each other rapidly as their molecules can move between each other. The gap between gas molecules is widely spaced. So the Earth's atmosphere is composed of different gases with different densities. Due to the diffusivity of gases being attracted by the gravity, every single gas diffuses equably through the whole atmosphere, regardless of different densities." That is a quote from a Thermal Engineer which can be at this link. www.quora.com/Why-all-the-gases-in-atmosphere-gets-mixed-even-though-their-specific-gravities-Densities-are-differentThere are thousands of sources which say the same thing. This is taught in all basic college physics courses. I'm disappointed that Nautonnier didn't jump in to correct your error. Well perhaps in your interpretation of what I said, I was in error. But when I am talking about stratification I am not talking about a hard line. You don't see hard lines in liquids either but you see stratification. And in fact our atmosphere is stratified with stratification increasing the higher you go because of the lack of motion up there. Icefisher, I understand what you are saying. You believe that if someone filled a tank with air and left it sit undisturbed, the gas components would separate (stratify) based on their molecular weights. I’d suggest you check whatever source you trust to see whether there is any significant variation in the ratio of oxygen to nitrogen throughout the atmosphere (troposphere). The fact that the ratio doesn’t change with altitude is not because of wind. Wind is not that perfect. There is a good scientific reason that gases stay mixed. Science says they don't stratify. I can understand why someone might believe that “lighter gases” float upwards in the atmosphere. After all there are lighter than air blimps which stay in the air. The difference is that the helium gas is separated and trapped within the blimp. If the gas were to be released it would succumb to the forces which cause it to redistribute evenly at all levels throughout the atmosphere even if the wind weren’t blowing and even though it is low molecular weight.
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Post by icefisher on Oct 7, 2018 21:34:03 GMT
Well perhaps in your interpretation of what I said, I was in error. But when I am talking about stratification I am not talking about a hard line. You don't see hard lines in liquids either but you see stratification. And in fact our atmosphere is stratified with stratification increasing the higher you go because of the lack of motion up there. Icefisher, I understand what you are saying. You believe that if someone filled a tank with air and left it sit undisturbed, the gas components would separate (stratify) based on their molecular weights. I’d suggest you check whatever source you trust to see whether there is any significant variation in the ratio of oxygen to nitrogen throughout the atmosphere (troposphere). The fact that the ratio doesn’t change with altitude is not because of wind. Wind is not that perfect. There is a good scientific reason that gases stay mixed. Science says they don't stratify. I can understand why someone might believe that “lighter gases” float upwards in the atmosphere. After all there are lighter than air blimps which stay in the air. The difference is that the helium gas is separated and trapped within the blimp. If the gas were to be released it would succumb to the forces which cause it to redistribute evenly at all levels throughout the atmosphere even if the wind weren’t blowing and even though it is low molecular weight. You understand wrong I never said any such thing or anything close to that. The discussion is about the atmosphere which is completely different with compression operating from gravity alone rather than some pumped up uniform pressure throughout the system as you probably deal with in your job if you are doing a lot of phase change work in an industrial setting. Further since the atmosphere does in fact have stratification this argument should be done. I don't have a lot of interest in figuring out exactly what prevents or enables stratification in gases, but can admit to the possibility that its relevant to discussion of the atmosphere and perhaps even climate change. But what is clear is our atmosphere does not act as a uniformly compressed tank of air mostly likely because its not. Of more interest is diffusion of heat in the atmosphere by whatever means it occurs. Water vapor does rise and it may even not be primarily because it is a lighter molecule it could be because of being able to absorb both solar heat and IR surface heat which potentially makes it lighter due to expansion. Further, trying to get back to the relevant point of condensation what applies between gases does not apply between a gas and a liquid which is the topic as I understood it of this thread. If you have something to contribute to that I would certainly appreciate it as I am most definitely in an information gathering mode on that specific topic and only interjected myself into this conversation on that point alone. An interjection that was based as I said on observations of water vapor IR sensor measurements appearing colder than water IR sensor measurements. If I am correct on that point (which only appears to me to be the case and certainly could be mistaken), then I see two possible explanations. 1) the water is as high as the water vapor and thus giving off additional IR that influences the measurement and is detected when a water vapor channel is compared to a water channel. or 2) the water is lower in the atmosphere and thus warmer but can't be seen on the water vapor channel and can only be seen on the water channel. Thus if 2 is the case its not proof a latent heat IR release, for 1 is the case then it is. But neither case disproves a latent heat IR release. Then taking a page from climate science I can conclude that is more likely that latent heat IR release occurs. . . .but I am not going to claim that settles the science on the matter. On the matter of stratifying gases in a compressed tank, that never once occurred to me. If it had back in the days I did a lot of scuba diving that would have been a huge concern, but quite frankly I never even thought about it and simply just followed my scuba instructors definition to put the mask on securely and give great consideration to how long I stayed down, don't hold my breath when coming up, and pay attention to proper decompression practices if I dove below a certain level so as to avoid nitrogen stratifying in bubbles in my bloodstream.
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 7, 2018 22:04:21 GMT
Anyone who has flown a lot knows that the atmosphere is stratified. This is not a gas experiment in a laboratory. Cirrostratus, Nimbostratus, tropopause, stratopause, inversion layer, etc etc. Climb out and see a haze layer then a set of cumulus clouds that start at a precise altitude then the zero degree isotherm etc etc,
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Post by sigurdur on Oct 7, 2018 23:20:08 GMT
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 8, 2018 10:47:39 GMT
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Post by nautonnier on Oct 8, 2018 16:50:27 GMT
China coal plants? Source? "China is building hundreds of new coal-fired power plants capable of generating a total of 259 gigawatts (GW) of electricity—that’s equal to the entire existing U.S. coal fleet of around 266 GW, findings by advocacy and research group CoalSwarm show.
Most of the new developments owe to a rapid rise in coal plant permit approvals by China’s provincial authorities from late 2014 to early 2016, according to the report, released Sept. 20. As much as a three-fold increase in coal plant permits were observed in 2015 compared to 2013.
“Guaranteed tariffs, easy access to cheap credit, and a recent permitting spree by provincial authorities have led to a rapid build-up of coal power capacity in China,” the report said.
As of 2018, China’s coal capacity sits at 993 GW. The country is responsible for 48 percent of the world’s coal-fired power supply." www.ntd.tv/2018/10/05/china-building-new-coal-plants-equal-to-us-capacity/and "Chinese energy companies have been starting two coal power projects a week despite a recent government policy designed to tackle the country’s overcapacity crisis, according to a new Greenpeace analysis.
China currently has over 900,000MW of coal-fired capacity, the equivalent of about 1,300 large coal-fired units."unearthed.greenpeace.org/2016/07/13/china-keeps-building-coal-plants-despite-new-overcapacity-policy/
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Post by duwayne on Oct 8, 2018 17:14:27 GMT
Anyone who has flown a lot knows that the atmosphere is stratified. This is not a gas experiment in a laboratory. Cirrostratus, Nimbostratus, tropopause, stratopause, inversion layer, etc etc. Climb out and see a haze layer then a set of cumulus clouds that start at a precise altitude then the zero degree isotherm etc etc, Nautonnier, I hate to ask this but do you know the difference between a gas and a liquid and a solid? Do you know that clouds are suspended liquids and/or solids. Please give a direct answer on this and not a runaround.
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