|
Post by Ratty on Jan 15, 2017 10:22:21 GMT
|
|
|
Post by nonentropic on Jan 15, 2017 10:39:34 GMT
Yep thought about it.
Subsidies mean a lot of people get poorer and a few get rich, sounds like real life left wing policy.
Time you went to bed Ratty.
|
|
|
Post by Ratty on Jan 15, 2017 10:42:05 GMT
Well, I did ask for thoughts ...... and YOU should be in bed long before me!
|
|
|
Post by douglavers on Jan 15, 2017 12:00:21 GMT
I am sure the green/environmental movement in Australia would think of any number of good reasons why no tidal power stations should be built.
It now seems to be almost impossible to build ordinary dams to store water here, in the driest continent outside Antarctica, yet alone structures to generate power.
One good reason that might be quoted, would be that the energy generated slowed the Earth's rotation.
|
|
|
Post by graywolf on Jan 15, 2017 12:20:01 GMT
In the UK the first studies commissioned into alternative energy generation was completed in 1974 during the 'oil crisis' and 11 of the 13 scientists completing it were employed by UKAEA ( United Kingdom Atomic energy Authority) and guess what? Somehow some of the working out was awry ( decimal points shifted etc) pricing all alternatives out of the market compared to nuclear.....
|
|
|
Post by nautonnier on Jan 15, 2017 12:46:16 GMT
First thought is that is errrrm tidal. Those of us who live close to the sea realize that tidal means that the tide comes in and then goes out with high tides being separated by approx 12 hours. So for the sea here today that is: Low 3:36AM -0.6ft High 9:57AM 4.7ft Low 4:19PM -0.6ft High 10:25PM 3.9ft It is only in the periods between the tide peaks that the full 'power' of the tide will be available it is like a continual sine wave. So yes the power will be available but not necessarily when people want it. So Tidal power is not 'dispatchable' and the effect on the grid will be that some other more dispatchable power will be needed to cycle out of phase with the tidal power to balance the varied rate of generation. This puts us back in the position of all 'green' energy schemes that an equal amount of dispatchable power almost certainly gas powered generation is needed. But the cost of the gas power generation per MW is actually cheaper than the tidal power probably for ever. As it is unlikely that the tidal power will ever recoup its capital costs. Such major schemes are not a once only capital cost as continual maintenance will be required. Anyone who has had anything to do with marine systems knows that their maintenance costs can become extreme especially if they consist of continually submerged moving parts. Every tidal turbine will need to be maintained and probably replaced after a surprisingly short time - probably in the 10-15 year range. In the quiet periods between tides all sorts of crud will settle and bind to the turbines. Barnacle encrusted turbines won't be efficient and coatings will not last (ask any boat owner). So Swansea will end up with a barrier that will slowly build sand bars as sand accumulates and blocks the turbines on the Bristol Channel side and silt will build up on the inland side slowly turning Swansea bay into wetlands reducing the tidal lagoon depth and increasing the crud supply. This will not worry the politicians who will almost certainly rake in a considerable fee for working with these companies. All the barrier has to do is provide income to them for say 30 years into their dotage. Then like its cousin subsidy farms the off-shore wind turbines, the tidal lagoon will become an abandoned rusting monument to the greens' stupidity, the politicians venality, and the peoples' gullibility.
|
|
|
Post by icefisher on Jan 15, 2017 15:11:59 GMT
First thought is that is errrrm tidal. Those of us who live close to the sea realize that tidal means that the tide comes in and then goes out with high tides being separated by approx 12 hours. So for the sea here today that is: Low 3:36AM -0.6ft High 9:57AM 4.7ft Low 4:19PM -0.6ft High 10:25PM 3.9ft It is only in the periods between the tide peaks that the full 'power' of the tide will be available it is like a continual sine wave. So yes the power will be available but not necessarily when people want it. So Tidal power is not 'dispatchable' and the effect on the grid will be that some other more dispatchable power will be needed to cycle out of phase with the tidal power to balance the varied rate of generation. This puts us back in the position of all 'green' energy schemes that an equal amount of dispatchable power almost certainly gas powered generation is needed. But the cost of the gas power generation per MW is actually cheaper than the tidal power probably for ever. As it is unlikely that the tidal power will ever recoup its capital costs. Such major schemes are not a once only capital cost as continual maintenance will be required. Anyone who has had anything to do with marine systems knows that their maintenance costs can become extreme especially if they consist of continually submerged moving parts. Every tidal turbine will need to be maintained and probably replaced after a surprisingly short time - probably in the 10-15 year range. In the quiet periods between tides all sorts of crud will settle and bind to the turbines. Barnacle encrusted turbines won't be efficient and coatings will not last (ask any boat owner). So Swansea will end up with a barrier that will slowly build sand bars as sand accumulates and blocks the turbines on the Bristol Channel side and silt will build up on the inland side slowly turning Swansea bay into wetlands reducing the tidal lagoon depth and increasing the crud supply. This will not worry the politicians who will almost certainly rake in a considerable fee for working with these companies. All the barrier has to do is provide income to them for say 30 years into their dotage. Then like its cousin subsidy farms the off-shore wind turbines, the tidal lagoon will become an abandoned rusting monument to the greens' stupidity, the politicians venality, and the peoples' gullibility. Worse ecologically this is a disaster. Tidal lagoons are integral to ocean ecology providing spawning and nursery grounds for many many nearshore fish species. This like damming the rivers for anadromous fish, except it will affect many more species. Its all about money into the coffers of wine/cheese elbow rubbing elites. The focus needs to change from big mega-monopolies creating huge ecologically disastrous projects to better architecture and taking even better advantage of old technologies used for living comfortably before the energy age and developing better transportation systems. Getting there need not be all that difficult. Lenders need to recognize energy independent architecture in their lending policies by being aware of reduced utility costs enabling architects to build energy efficient and energy collecting construction without being pushed out of the market via lending policies. Money is being wasted on all this nonsense and that puts our future at risk far more than CO2 emissions will. p.s. besides the 12 hour tidal variability it also varies considerably over the 28 days the moon takes to circle the earth. Daily tidal changes can actually completely disappear as the sun and the moon take on different alignments with the maximum tides occurring when the sun and moon are in perfect alignment through the center of the earth. p.p.s. Tidal lagoons almost certainly will not happen in California as one of the most important sources of environmentalism in California is surfers and they will become unhinged at any prospect of this.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Jan 15, 2017 15:34:12 GMT
Thoughts on tidal power.
A decemated economy as productive capital is diverted to unproductive capital.
|
|
|
Post by icefisher on Jan 15, 2017 16:25:45 GMT
Thoughts on tidal power. A decemated economy as productive capital is diverted to unproductive capital. The inevitable result of the government telling us what we need.
|
|
|
Post by nonentropic on Jan 15, 2017 17:40:03 GMT
Yes GW the use of central command style government risks hijacking.
The nuclear industry in all likelihood should have gone broke after the first cost failures and not unlike the current central planning the government is able to manage the sell price thus making it a "success".
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Jan 15, 2017 18:48:20 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Ratty on Jan 16, 2017 0:16:34 GMT
Thanks everyone. That's enough thoughts to keep me out of mischief for a decade.
|
|
|
Post by sigurdur on Jan 16, 2017 1:00:17 GMT
Thanks everyone. That's enough thoughts to keep me out of mischief for a decade. This is all it takes? I bet your wife would have loved to know this about 40 years ago!
|
|
|
Post by nonentropic on Jan 16, 2017 1:06:03 GMT
years of beating down Sig, Ratty is a broken man.
|
|
|
Post by Ratty on Jan 16, 2017 1:40:36 GMT
years of beating down Sig, Ratty is a broken man. Worse!
|
|