Water and C02 in the atmosphere

[steve]

According to your own words the surface is going to be incredibly hot because it is not cooled either by significant conduction or any of the agreed none radiation.

So according to you the surface is going to be very hot but the atmosphere colder 500 feet higher? So all that heat for 5 billion years and local higher atmosphere is mysterious cold when it can never cool unless it for some reason can descend against gravity to cool?

Meanwhile even double glazing with air or with argon has issues with conduction and convection in a tiny layer of gas, argon being used because it has almost half the conduction of air due its mass.

No. According to my own words: If the transfer of energy from the surface to the atmosphere by conduction is important, then this will allow the surface to warm a bit more. But very quickly the *surface* radiation will increase (proportional to T^4). The radiation will escape to space because there are no greenhouse gases in the atmosphere to absorb the radiation, and the surface will maintain a cold temperature because of radiative cooling.

In summary.

Scenario 1: Current planet - radiation is affected by greenhouse gases. Surface temp 280K or so.

Scenario 2: No greenhouse gas world and virtually no conduction of heat from surface to atmosphere. Surface temp 250K or so.

Scenario 3: No greenhouse gases and some conduction of heat from surface to atmosphere. Surface temperature will be between 250K and 280K. If the sun warms the surface, the surface will conduct heat to the atmosphere, so warming the atmosphere.

But for each degree it warms, it radiates another 4W/m^2, all of which goes directly to space. So soon it can't warm up any more and therefore it can't warm the atmosphere any more.



Finally, please remember the higher atmosphere is colder mainly due to adiabatic cooling, which means it is colder without losing any heat.

[radiant]

Oct 16, 2009 16:09:56 GMT steve said:

According to your own words the surface is going to be incredibly hot because it is not cooled either by significant conduction or any of the agreed none radiation.

So according to you the surface is going to be very hot but the atmosphere colder 500 feet higher? So all that heat for 5 billion years and local higher atmosphere is mysterious cold when it can never cool unless it for some reason can descend against gravity to cool?

Meanwhile even double glazing with air or with argon has issues with conduction and convection in a tiny layer of gas, argon being used because it has almost half the conduction of air due its mass.

No. According to my own words: If the transfer of energy from the surface to the atmosphere by conduction is important, then this will allow the surface to warm a bit more. But very quickly the *surface* radiation will increase (proportional to T^4). The radiation will escape to space because there are no greenhouse gases in the atmosphere to absorb the radiation, and the surface will maintain a cold temperature because of radiative cooling.

In summary.

Scenario 1: Current planet - radiation is affected by greenhouse gases. Surface temp 280K or so.

Scenario 2: No greenhouse gas world and virtually no conduction of heat from surface to atmosphere. Surface temp 250K or so.

Scenario 3: No greenhouse gases and some conduction of heat from surface to atmosphere. Surface temperature will be between 250K and 280K. If the sun warms the surface, the surface will conduct heat to the atmosphere, so warming the atmosphere.

But for each degree it warms, it radiates another 4W/m^2, all of which goes directly to space. So soon it can't warm up any more and therefore it can't warm the atmosphere any more.



Finally, please remember the higher atmosphere is colder mainly due to adiabatic cooling, which means it is colder without losing any heat.

This conversation is pointless because you just keep repeating the same situation

If you take a parcel of air upwards it cools but if you take similar parcels upwards for 5 billion years you are adding billions of years of heating to the atmosphere

You want it all ways to your advantage

Apparently the earth is colder because there is no downdwelling radiation but apparently it is much hotter because???

And because it is much hotter some law applies that makes it colder

What are you talking about?

I have already agreed the earth and the lower atmosphere will be colder than today

I am tired of hearing lectures from you that tell me the earth will be colder where you totally ignore the points i am raising which have nothing to do with that at all

[steve]

This conversation is pointless because you just keep repeating the same situation

If you take a parcel of air upwards it cools but if you take similar parcels upwards for 5 billion years you are adding billions of years of heating to the atmosphere

You want it all ways to your advantage

I have said that once the surface reaches equilibrium with the atmosphere and the sun, there is NO MORE HEATING OF THE ATMOSPHERE.

The atmosphere will absorb hardly any radiation from the earth due to lack of greenhouse gases, and it will emit the same amout (hardly any).

It will not warm because it the bottom layer of the atmosphere will be the same temperature as the earth's surface.

So 5 billion years later this theoretical atmosphere will still be at the same temperature.

I am repeating myself because you aren't reading my posts carefully enough.

[radiant]

Oct 16, 2009 16:58:01 GMT steve said:

This conversation is pointless because you just keep repeating the same situation

If you take a parcel of air upwards it cools but if you take similar parcels upwards for 5 billion years you are adding billions of years of heating to the atmosphere

You want it all ways to your advantage

I have said that once the surface reaches equilibrium with the atmosphere and the sun, there is NO MORE HEATING OF THE ATMOSPHERE.

The atmosphere will absorb hardly any radiation from the earth due to lack of greenhouse gases, and it will emit the same amout (hardly any).

It will not warm because it the bottom layer of the atmosphere will be the same temperature as the earth's surface.

So 5 billion years later this theoretical atmosphere will still be at the same temperature.

I am repeating myself because you aren't reading my posts carefully enough.

Much of the problem here is because you refuse to deal with high energy molecules versus low energy molecules and the nature of heat and instead talk about this thing called temperature.

By morning i wonder if there would be liquid air at the surface? Then with it being colder higher in the atmosphere i suppose it would be solid higher up?

Presumably it would be snowing solid air?

That would be it i suppose with it being so much colder higher up.