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Post by curiousgeorge on Oct 10, 2011 2:38:36 GMT
There's an ongoing debate in the farming community about that issue of food vs fuel, and prices. There have been some experimental plots that have yielded 300 bu/acre (corn ) lately, but that's been done on prime land with specific varieties of GM corn and a lot of tlc. The avg. is around 160 or so. There is a big push to get yields up for cash crops like corn and soy, but a lot of folks figure we're pretty close to the limit already. Rice, wheat, etc. also are in that category. Fruits & Veggies are not a big issue, since there's plenty of land, etc. and lot's of people grow their own - I do. It's not unusual for a veggie crop to be plowed under due to market saturation. It's a real balancing act for farmers. Yield increases don't always pay off, because of increased inputs for fertilizer, water, fuel, etc. Corn, wheat, and soy need to be dryed (natural gas), stored, transported, etc. It's one of the most complicated businesses going, and the competition is international, which means tariffs and subsidies in some cases. Feeding an ever growing global population, that is expanding their diets into new areas ( more meat, greater variety, etc. ) is a significant challenge. "Fruits & Veggies are not a big issue, since there's plenty of land, etc. and lot's of people grow their own - I do. It's not unusual for a veggie crop to be plowed under due to market saturation. "This is a common sight in Europe where subsidies unbalance the market even more than in the US. But much of the 'saturation' is also due to the consumer moving to a domestic version of 'just in time' food stocking. Consumers have got so used to the local supermarket having fresh fruit and vegetables at all times regardless of the season, that the old practices during a glut of bottling, drying, pickling and other long-term food storage methods have become lost skills. If the second dip of the depression we are in goes as deep as it appears it will do - I think these skills will need to be relearned. Those with land may also need to think hard about what crops to keep for themselves and how to keep them safe from hungry townies. (For those who want simple fruit pickling - I recommend making rumtopf ) Absolutely correct. Even home gardening on the level you discuss is a complex and difficult task. Many people only grow those upside down tomatoes and think they are doing great. And then there's the issue of protein, which means chickens at the very least, and the issues associated with that. The majority of the US population lives in megacities and close in burbs, and is subject to all kinds of restrictions on gardening, livestock, etc., which together with the lack of knowledge and sufficient space for a decent garden, would make it impossible for them to be even marginally self-sufficient food wise. A lot of them would either starve or try to invade the rural areas. Some might be taken in by farmers willing to hire them as farm hands or share croppers for the price of room and board, but that would quickly be saturated. Could get ugly real fast.
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Post by trbixler on Oct 10, 2011 14:27:31 GMT
Buildings, cars, cats, and pesticides each kill way over a thousand times as many birds as windmills, and most windmill deaths are caused by pre-2000 units that were far more dangerous. I think bats are a bigger issue. www.wvhighlands.org/VoiceText%20PDFs/VoiceOct04%20P22.pdf"Peaks in bat kills seem to occur on calm, low-wind nights after the passage of storm fronts, for example. On the other hand, “We find no evidence that bats are killed by stationary turbines,” he said. In other words, it’s the spinning blades. “We also have not given up on deterrents on adjusting the sounds put off by turbines,” Tuttle said. “We have just started looking at the thermal imaging tapes. The turbines put off a wide range of sounds that are audible and ultrasonic.” " Many backup power plants might be replaced by batteries. Ten years or so after a hybrid car is built, a reasonable battery comes on the secondary market. These used batteries could be tied into the grid. www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-car-battery"The discharge power capability of the Prius pack is about 20 kW at 50 percent state-of-charge." It would take about 25,000 Prius batteries to replace a 500MW power plant. www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2011-04-06-prius-tops-one-million-in-sales.htm"Prius gas-electric hybrid has passed 1 million in U.S. sales since the then-radical high-mileage car’s launch in 2000," So using just the Prius batteries we have in the pipeline, we could replace 4 coal plants for ten hours. www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/coalvswind/c01.html"A typical (500 megawatt) coal plant burns 1.4 million tons of coal each year. There are about 600 U.S. coal plants." We'd need a lot of hybrid vehicle batteries. I wonder how long the used batteries will last in a controlled stationary application with good monitoring and maintenance? The smart grid and smart appliances will also remove some need for backup power plants. Most people's laundry will be done when rates are low and supply is plentiful. Electricity will be very cheap at those times in a renewable energy world. How about some support for your claims of buildings killing eagles and cats. Used batteries to base load support Easy to say harder to do. Much harder to do at a profit.
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Post by trbixler on Oct 10, 2011 14:35:42 GMT
Mother may I make those magnets and batteries? Mr. Green at work, No and do not look for them. "Rare earths rock green tech and geopolitics" "The clean energy economy of the future hinges on a lot of things, chief among them the availability of the scores of rare earth minerals and other elements used to make everything from photovoltaic panels and cellphone displays to the permanent magnets in cutting edge new wind generators. And right out of the gate trouble is brewing over projected growth in demand for these minerals and the security of their supplies." wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/10/rare-earths-rock-green-tech-and-geopolitics/#more-48965
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Post by curiousgeorge on Oct 10, 2011 17:25:31 GMT
Mother may I make those magnets and batteries? Mr. Green at work, No and do not look for them. "Rare earths rock green tech and geopolitics" "The clean energy economy of the future hinges on a lot of things, chief among them the availability of the scores of rare earth minerals and other elements used to make everything from photovoltaic panels and cellphone displays to the permanent magnets in cutting edge new wind generators. And right out of the gate trouble is brewing over projected growth in demand for these minerals and the security of their supplies." wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/10/rare-earths-rock-green-tech-and-geopolitics/#more-48965I hope people will also read Gail Combs reply on that thread. Concerning UN control of potential mining sites in the US. One of her links goes to this Legal brief Pace Environmental Law Review Volume 24 Issue 1 Winter 2007 Article 3 1-1-2007 Mining and the World Heritage Convention: Democratic Legitimacy and Treaty Compliance Nathasha Affolder Excerpt: III. WHAT IS THE DEMOCRACY PROBLEM IN THE WORLD HERITAGE CONVENTION? 42 In controversies over the Cheviot mine, the New World mine, and the Jabiluka mine, a host of democratic flaws of the Convention regime are identified. In part, they reflect the "paranoid lather"43 into which talk show hosts whipped their listeners during heated debates, and are based on misunderstandings of the operation of the Convention: What do the Statue of Liberty, Independence Hall, Jefferson's Monticello and Yellowstone National Park all have in common? Each of these national treasures is now regulated according to the dictates of foreign bureaucrats rather than according to the will of the American people. [Site designations can be made] unilaterally without congressional approval. Under the terms of the World Heritage Treaty, the president doesn't need to consult anyone before placing U.S. territory under the thumb of the United Nations. More: digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1053&context=pelr
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Post by richardlowe on Oct 10, 2011 19:03:19 GMT
Mother may I make those magnets and batteries? Mr. Green at work, No and do not look for them. "Rare earths rock green tech and geopolitics" "The clean energy economy of the future hinges on a lot of things, chief among them the availability of the scores of rare earth minerals and other elements used to make everything from photovoltaic panels and cellphone displays to the permanent magnets in cutting edge new wind generators. And right out of the gate trouble is brewing over projected growth in demand for these minerals and the security of their supplies." Yes. Manufacturers will have to learn to build things with less rare earths. Mining is a dirty business and as we extract less rich deposits the cost and environmental damage will go up. At least the single supplier issue is being solved. Mines around the world are re-opening. Wind power increases the cost of our electronic devices.
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Post by glennkoks on Oct 10, 2011 19:21:30 GMT
When natural gas was 14.00 an MCF and oil was 147.00 a barrel in 07' and 08' wind and solar energy made much more economic sense. Now with more and more shale gas coming on line and prices at 3.50 per MCF alternative energy cannot compete. Wind and solar energy will make more sense when the worldwide economy recovers and the demand for both natural gas and crude oil increases and the price rebounds. Power plants are long term investments. Your post actually supports the choice of solar and wind power, especially as the choices made today won't affect power production until the plant is up and running. Interestingly, if we were to choose that path, gas and oil could drop in price, and so wind and solar don't become cost effective until after the current new power plants are retired! My post was neither meant to support nor oppose the choice of solar and wind power. The intention of my post was to point out the fact that economics is the biggest factor in alternative energy cost efficiency. Solar and wind will have a place as other traditional forms of electrical production become more costly. Energy costs are not static. They ebb and flow with the economy and so does the practicality of alternatives.
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Post by richardlowe on Oct 10, 2011 20:51:34 GMT
How about some support for your claims of buildings killing eagles and cats. Used batteries to base load support Easy to say harder to do. Much harder to do at a profit. Neither buildings nor cats kill eagles. This issue is headed for the courts. Some sites might have to be altered or shut down. Either way, an expensive error. articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/03/local/la-me-wind-eagles-20110803The hybrid car battery to grid solution has been known for a long time. There was a flurry of press when Chevy made arrangements to provide/sell used Volt batteries to a group of utility companies. I've provided links to a couple below. The cost of used Pruis batteries today ranges from the $200 bounty to around $500 on EBay. Shipping adds another $100 or two. Still, pretty cheap for such a big component that also has great recycling value. gigaom.com/cleantech/gm-abb-seek-chevy-volt-battery-afterlife-in-grid/www.triplepundit.com/2010/10/second-life-used-electric-car-batteries-might-go-to-the-grid/Wind power is around 2.3% of US's usage. Raising it by a factor of 10 seems like a lot but doable. Is it wise? I'm concerned about wildlife, but think research and law are headed in the right direction on the issue. I'm concerned about scenery. Some people think they're gorgeous, others think they're hideous. I guess we'd get used to it. I'm concerned about changes in relative humidity and temperature. I'm concerned about rare earths' availability, cost, and the tailings left behind from their mining.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Oct 10, 2011 21:16:04 GMT
Richard, I think your estimate on wind is wrong. According to the EIA, the total contribution of all alternative energy is only 8% of total energy consumption, with wind making up 9% of that 8% as of 2009. Or about .7% of total consumption.
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Post by trbixler on Oct 10, 2011 23:27:21 GMT
How about some support for your claims of buildings killing eagles and cats. Used batteries to base load support Easy to say harder to do. Much harder to do at a profit. Neither buildings nor cats kill eagles. This issue is headed for the courts. Some sites might have to be altered or shut down. Either way, an expensive error. articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/03/local/la-me-wind-eagles-20110803The hybrid car battery to grid solution has been known for a long time. There was a flurry of press when Chevy made arrangements to provide/sell used Volt batteries to a group of utility companies. I've provided links to a couple below. The cost of used Pruis batteries today ranges from the $200 bounty to around $500 on EBay. Shipping adds another $100 or two. Still, pretty cheap for such a big component that also has great recycling value. gigaom.com/cleantech/gm-abb-seek-chevy-volt-battery-afterlife-in-grid/www.triplepundit.com/2010/10/second-life-used-electric-car-batteries-might-go-to-the-grid/Wind power is around 2.3% of US's usage. Raising it by a factor of 10 seems like a lot but doable. Is it wise? I'm concerned about wildlife, but think research and law are headed in the right direction on the issue. I'm concerned about scenery. Some people think they're gorgeous, others think they're hideous. I guess we'd get used to it. I'm concerned about changes in relative humidity and temperature. I'm concerned about rare earths' availability, cost, and the tailings left behind from their mining. From your link "Tuesday’s memorandum of understanding was short on details, and the two companies cited its “non-exclusive” nature. That means GM and LG Chem, the maker of the battery cells for the Volt’s 16 kilowatt-hour batteries, may be announcing more partners in the future. Just about every battery company and electric and hybrid vehicle maker seems to be looking for an afterlife for batteries that are too depleted to drive vehicles, yet still have up to 80 percent of their original capacity available for less stressful duties. In fact, that’s seen as critical for making EVs and plug-in hybrid vehicles more affordable, since much of the additional cost comes from the expensive batteries." So they really have no idea of the cost. Further do not hold your breath on Volt's volume as even with government support of the company and the cars the sales has been anemic at best. So the buildings do not kill cats or Eagles but wind turbines do, very environmentally friendly.
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Post by trbixler on Oct 18, 2011 21:10:07 GMT
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Post by trbixler on Nov 20, 2011 19:06:09 GMT
Mr. Green and his love of spending someone elses money (usually tax payers money). "Dutch fall out of love with windmills" "Towering over the waves of the North Sea like an army of giants, blades whipping through the wind, the turbines were the country's best hope to curb carbon emissions and meet growing demand for electricity. The 36 turbines -- each one the height of a 30-storey building -- produce enough electricity to meet the needs of more than 100,000 households each year. But five years later the green future looks a long way off. Faced with the need to cut its budget deficit, the Dutch government says offshore wind power is too expensive and that it cannot afford to subsidize the entire cost of 18 cents per kilowatt hour -- some 4.5 billion euros last year."
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Post by trbixler on Dec 8, 2011 22:08:43 GMT
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Post by trbixler on Dec 17, 2011 14:05:41 GMT
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Post by trbixler on Jan 10, 2012 16:05:31 GMT
In case you missed it. "There’s a reason the modern age moved on from windmills" "In the UK, the CIVITAS group has just released an economic analysis of wind power. The scathing report confirms what we have been reporting for years here on WUWT: wind power is expensive, inefficient, does little or nothing to offset CO2, and isn’t economically viable without taxpayer funded subsidies. Oh, and they blight the landscape too. They report: [Wind-power] is expensive and yet it is not effective in cutting CO2 emissions. If it were not for the renewables targets set by the Renewables Directive, wind-power would not even be entertained as a cost-effective way of generating electricity or cutting emissions. The renewables targets should be renegotiated with the EU. [p. 30] Energy experts warn that unwarranted support for wind-power is hindering genuinely cleaner energy" wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/10/theres-a-reason-the-modern-age-moved-on-from-windmills/#more-54541
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Post by trbixler on Jan 12, 2012 13:44:02 GMT
Tax support cuts turbines production as Mr. Green loses grip on world economy? "Vestas to lay off more than 2,300 workers" "COPENHAGEN, Denmark—Vestas A/S, the world's biggest maker of wind turbines in terms of revenues, said Thursday it will lay off around 2,300 employees, mainly in Denmark, because of a market downturn caused by the global financial crisis." www.boston.com/business/articles/2012/01/12/vestas_to_lay_off_more_than_2300_workers/
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