An Electrifying Question

[Acolyte]

Sept 21, 2008 4:16:17 GMT @kaidaw said:

I thought the challenges very straight-forward: Hey, fella, unlikely as you think it is, it is possible that quasars of long ago and far away are visually close to (but very far behind) other objects; further, since you can offer no mechanism for a nearby galaxy at z=.7 to shoot out two quasars at z=4.7 and z=4.9, maybe it didn't.

A walk in the park with the spice does sound nice, though.

It was & the indian meal after was also excellent. ah, the joys of Melbourne - 130+ nationalities & most of them have restaurants...

Normally I'd agree, but did you look at those two links? There seems distinct physical connection between the quasar-like objects and the (Arp-proposed) parent galaxies. And there's more than just those two. Also, I'd have to question whether or not a professional astronomer would/could be silly enough to equate visual alignment with physical proximity without a reason for so supposing.

However, this seems to have moved in a different direction than I originally intended; I'm unsure how much latitude an OP has to change focus of the thread...

And still I don't have an explanation for how we can get magnetic events without electric ones. Astronomy is replete with examples of plasma and ions and magnetic phenomena (eg. Perseus A see comment 'The twin dark cavities-- each large enough to contain a galaxy half the diameter of our Milky Way galaxy¬ are thought to be buoyant magnetized bubbles of energetic particles produced by energy released from the vicinity of the black hole'
AFAIK, the energy that produces magnetic phenomena is electromagnetic in nature. Is there another? Ions are by definition electric in nature, as is plasma, so why isn't there more emphasis on the contributions of electrical and magnetic phenomena to cosmology? After all, the EMF is more than billions of time stronger than gravity, yet what I see is a cosmology explained by gravity with mysterious additives (DM & DE) alongside rejection of any other possible cause.

Is it possible that it is EMF, not gravity, that has a different character on large scales? After all, we live in, I understand, an ionised 'wind' from the sun that sweeps out to the heliopause - it seems at least feasible that the field generated by this could influence the behaviour of EMF at a system level so we have a skewed view of the force as it exists outside the helio-eggshell.


Another point I meant to bring up is the way the 'ejecta' high redshift objects appear to be paired on either side of the 'parent' galaxies.

Also a puzzle is why quasars appear to be grouped at a strangely limited range of redshifts - from memory it's between 2 & 3 - I'll see if I can find the reference I read on this. But if it is so, there is a question of what it was about the universe back then that produced lots of quasars that then stopped being so, causing a lack of younger/closer ones.

Now my Redshift understanding isn't great, but I think a redshift at that level precludes there being many quasars a long distance from Earth - I'm guessing from memory here, but I think it's about 3.5billion ly's? Please correct this if I'm a long way out. Is there a reason we wouldn't be seeing quasars from further out?

Edit: (found part of what I recalled seeing... 2dF QSO Redshift Survey)

[senorchuck]

acolyte,

spaceflightnow.com/news/n0004/14distantobject/index.html
"The newly discovered quasar has a red shift of 5.8"
"Finding record-breaking quasars has become something of a habit for the Sky Survey," said SDSS astronomer Professor Michael Strauss, of Princeton University. "Twice before, SDSS scientists have found quasars more distant than any found before. To date, SDSS has discovered some thousand quasars, including eight of the ten most distant known quasars and two-thirds of the quasars with redshifts greater than 4.5 -- a quasar harvest that is the more remarkable because it comes from data gleaned from the early engineering phase of the Sky Survey."

If there were none with a high red-shift, the proper question would be: Did [EDITED] none form before then?...but they did/do exist.
Still, one might ask: Why have none formed (apparently) in the last 2.5 billion years?

Regarding interacting magnetospheres: The fact that magnetospheres interact does not mean that the have meaningful interaction over galactic and intergalactic scales (EU theory). And, though an amateur when it comes to relativity, I believe it would be a violation of special relativity if there were no frame of reference from which a magnetic field exhibited some electric field properties. [That is probably an inexact statement, but it is close to the point. You may have to choose between provisionally rejecting special relativity or provisionally rejecting some guy's comments about black holes or another's about MECO's.]

[ozone]

"Is it possible that it is EMF, not gravity, that has a different character on large scales? After all, we live in, I understand, an ionised 'wind' from the sun that sweeps out to the heliopause - it seems at least feasible that the field generated by this could influence the behaviour of EMF at a system level so we have a skewed view of the force as it exists outside the helio-eggshell."

I don't recall that anyone except committed EU'ers hold that electric field forces obey any distance law except inverse square, and I don't recall that any have claimed that gravity obeys any distance law except inverse square (though there was a suggestion that gravity's inverse square law has not yet been verified at sub-millimeter distances... And it should be checked at sub-millimeter distances, where, conceivably the six degenerate physical dimensions lie all curled up like girl thingycats in front of a fire. [Have not heard that there might be super-dimensions, though quantum foam universes, etc...... Sigh, beyond me.]

Back to point: Can you propose an electric field law (equation will do) that is pure inverse square out to at least a couple billion kilometers, and grows logrithmically thereafter?

[Acolyte]

Thanks for the info senorchuck; I hadn't found anything on quasars with that high a redshift. you'd think if you're going to survey QSO's (2dF & Durham/AAT surveys) you'd include at least a selection of the higher redshift ones. Of course QSO's that high doesn't automatically prove redshift is distance.

MECO? Middle Eastern Christian Outreach? Bathroom products? Google doesn't help much...

@senorchuck said:

The fact that magnetospheres interact does not mean that the have meaningful interaction over galactic and intergalactic scales (EU theory).

Um... it doesn't mean they don't not interact either. ;D

senorchuck said:

And, though an amateur when it comes to relativity, I believe it would be a violation of special relativity if there were no frame of reference from which a magnetic field exhibited some electric field properties. [That is probably an inexact statement, but it is close to the point.

If that's true, and we see magnetically constrained areas out there in sizes rivalling or larger than galaxies, (see link & quote in prior post for Perseus A or NGC 1275 for examples) doesn't that imply there would be a frame where we'd see electric effects across the same sizes? If the solar magnetosphere reaches out into the depths of the solar system, wouldn't there be electric effects across that distance? Or am I misunderstanding your statement here?

senorchuck said:

You may have to choose between provisionally rejecting special relativity or provisionally rejecting some guy's comments about black holes or another's about MECO's.

My understanding was Einstein wasn't all that happy about Special Relativity and spent most of his life looking for a better expression or more complete picture of what was behind it all. (I'm presuming that 'you' here isn't specific to me - I have no qualifications to go rejecting SR. ;D

Sept 21, 2008 15:40:47 GMT ozone" said:

"Is it possible that it is EMF, not gravity, that has a different character on large scales? After all, we live in, I understand, an ionised 'wind' from the sun that sweeps out to the heliopause - it seems at least feasible that the field generated by this could influence the behaviour of EMF at a system level so we have a skewed view of the force as it exists outside the helio-eggshell."

I don't recall that anyone except committed EU'ers hold that electric field forces obey any distance law except inverse square, and I don't recall that any have claimed that gravity obeys any distance law except inverse square (though there was a suggestion that gravity's inverse square law has not yet been verified at sub-millimeter distances... And it should be checked at sub-millimeter distances, where, conceivably the six degenerate physical dimensions lie all curled up like girl thingycats in front of a fire. [Have not heard that there might be super-dimensions, though quantum foam universes, etc...... Sigh, beyond me.]

Back to point: Can you propose an electric field law (equation will do) that is pure inverse square out to at least a couple billion kilometers, and grows logrithmically thereafter?

The only thought that comes to mind here is mind... From what I understand our brains create an electric field via neuronal activity and from Edward de Bono and those who thoerise about a holographic mind it seems information can be stored that way & it may very well be where we hold our seat of consciousness. Perhaps a vast sea of EM points such as a solar system-wide magnetosphere might react differently to unconstrained EM fields?

;D In other words, no I can't... I know enough to be dangerous, but I'm trying to learn more.

And again, I am not wedded in any way to EU; it was a point of entry not my dogma.

[france]

some of you are not very friendly with EU researchs to say they are "rubbish"

Read all the links to understand you are wrong www.google.fr/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2008-27,GGLJ:fr&q=cern+particles+accelerator

If you want some news, I can tell you that the accelerator is stopped for two months because of an electrical problem. You see, it'sn't only a theory it's the reality. That happened with the helium. The helium leak, said CERN, is due to an electrical problem between two magnets, which probably melted, leading to a mechanical problem.

According to me, they will have a lot of problems of this kind before to find that electrical events are the core of the studies above all. But with such a power scientists have a lot of work to keep magnets alive... are you a good ingenior to find the strongest magnets to sell it at CERN ?

You see the researchs of my french association are not so stupid ! We keep on the labor of Albert Nodon who wrote "the electrical action of the Sun" many years ago at the begining of the 20 th.
He thought rain was brought by solar wind and sunspots. I keep curves that prove it for the period 1950 - 2000 (for mean latitude), but I'm waiting the good moment to show them.

albert-nodon.e-monsite.com/rubrique,l-experimentateur,34533.html (using google translation you could read in english)

[ozone]

Hi, Patricia (France)! Welcome to the new board.

I did not say EU (Electric Universe, not European Union, a separate topic) is "rubbish". I said: propose a mechanism and an equation which causes the electric field to follow an inverse square law for the first few billion kilometers and a logrithmic increasing function thereafter.

[kaidaw]

acolyte,

You ask so many questions, I'm going to have to ask for information in turn. Me first. I have had great curry in Macao, Guangzhou, Shang Kang, Shanghai, and my wife makes same very well. I have never been to India (have only flown over), but I have had curry in a London "Indian" restuarant. Are these two totally different culinary delights, or did I just have bad curry in London?

"Thanks for the info senorchuck; I hadn't found anything on quasars with that high a redshift. you'd think if you're going to survey QSO's (2dF & Durham/AAT surveys) you'd include at least a selection of the higher redshift ones. Of course QSO's that high doesn't automatically prove redshift is distance."
As you may have heard, some people who present data have an agenda. There are quasars with high red-shift. If they occur less frequently than those in the 2.5-3.5 billion lightyear range, then the conditions for their formation were probably less favorable prior to that time.

"MECO? Middle Eastern Christian Outreach? Bathroom products? Google doesn't help much... "
Try Yahoo Search; Google is Politically Correct. MECO: a) Magnetospheric Eternally Collapsing Object, or b) Massive Eternally Collapsing Object. Some people think black holes are impossible, that the outward radiation pressure of a gravitationally collapsing object will almost but not quite offset the collapse, resulting in it taking an infinite period of time (or the conversion of all matter to radiation) for a massive object to collapse to black hole status. [In the latter case, the resulting black hole would have zero mass...]

" If the solar magnetosphere reaches out into the depths of the solar system, wouldn't there be electric effects across that distance? Or am I misunderstanding your statement here?"
Sure, there will be electric effects throughout the solar system where its magnetosphere intersects another electromagnetic field. And the interaction follows the inverse square law. The objection to the EU position is that it DOES NOT INCREASE in effect after the orbit of the Oort Cloud.

"My understanding was Einstein wasn't all that happy about Special Relativity and spent most of his life looking for a better expression or more complete picture of what was behind it all."
I sure hope that is true. If true, it reinforces his credentials as a scientist. A lot of scientists accept as a working hypothesis things they don't really like, but those things just happen to provide a more likely explanation than anything else known at the time.

[npsguy]

Sept 21, 2008 22:04:37 GMT france said:

some of you are not very friendly with EU researchs to say they are "rubbish"

I am a little confused... are we talking about the same people who wrote that the Space Shuttle Columbia was not damaged by foam insulation but by "mega lightning"? www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=cc6y424y

The same people who said that craters on the Moon and Mars were created by plasma discharges and not by metoer impacts? www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=8p6ud5jc

The same people that said we don't understand how lightning works in clouds so therefore clouds are conduits for electricity in space. www.holoscience.com/synopsis.php?page=9

AND WHAT brought about this new science? Just read this "The Electric Universe model grew from the realization that a new plasma cosmology and an understanding of electrical phenomena in space could illuminate the new work being done in comparative mythology." www.holoscience.com/synopsis.php?page=3

Comparative mythology? Are you guys all dropping ACID? This is worse than rubbish... it purposely distorting the truth. This ranks up there with snake oil and "pyramid power".

Rubbish hardly begins to describe it.

And I am not alone. A number of forums that point out "junk science" have made comments about the 'Electric Universe' website and how ridiculous it is. Even the "Amazing Randi" organization has said what a bunch of junk this is.

Obviously I was misled to believe this forum was to discuss real science regarding the Sun, not some fantasy land crackpot ideas.

[kaidaw]

npsguy

The nice things about having multiple Forums and multiple threads on this site are:
1) If you don't like one, you don't have to go there.
2) As long as you are civil, no one is going to try to suppress thought as we examine a variety of topics of interest.

In the process, there are lots of people who come to this site who do not know that you can't use Google to search or Wikipedia to summarize the Global Warming/Global Cooling issue (it is kind of unbelievable at first hearing). They can hear that here, and then go verify it; then they can believe it, and act accordingly.

There are people who come to this site who have never heard of the Electric Universe; others who have heard and don't know enough to make a decision; others who buy in because of what they have been reading; others who buy in because they don't like to contemplate the alternatives; others who are skeptics.

If we come in here browbeating those who don't agree with us, there can be no discourse, no possible good effect.

Personally, I could not handle The End of the 5th Sun, so I stayed away. But, the Electric Universe... some of the above groups interest me. In the process of reasoned discourse, I can firm up (or weaken) the reasons I believe as I do, and I can participate with others as they do the same.

[Acolyte]

Sept 21, 2008 22:45:30 GMT @kaidaw said:

acolyte,

You ask so many questions, I'm going to have to ask for information in turn. Me first. I have had great curry in Macao, Guangzhou, Shang Kang, Shanghai, and my wife makes same very well. I have never been to India (have only flown over), but I have had curry in a London "Indian" restuarant. Are these two totally different culinary delights, or did I just have bad curry in London?

"Thanks for the info senorchuck; I hadn't found anything on quasars with that high a redshift. you'd think if you're going to survey QSO's (2dF & Durham/AAT surveys) you'd include at least a selection of the higher redshift ones. Of course QSO's that high doesn't automatically prove redshift is distance."
As you may have heard, some people who present data have an agenda. There are quasars with high red-shift. If they occur less frequently than those in the 2.5-3.5 billion lightyear range, then the conditions for their formation were probably less favorable prior to that time.

"MECO? Middle Eastern Christian Outreach? Bathroom products? Google doesn't help much... "
Try Yahoo Search; Google is Politically Correct. MECO: a) Magnetospheric Eternally Collapsing Object, or b) Massive Eternally Collapsing Object. Some people think black holes are impossible, that the outward radiation pressure of a gravitationally collapsing object will almost but not quite offset the collapse, resulting in it taking an infinite period of time (or the conversion of all matter to radiation) for a massive object to collapse to black hole status. [In the latter case, the resulting black hole would have zero mass...]

" If the solar magnetosphere reaches out into the depths of the solar system, wouldn't there be electric effects across that distance? Or am I misunderstanding your statement here?"
Sure, there will be electric effects throughout the solar system where its magnetosphere intersects another electromagnetic field. And the interaction follows the inverse square law. The objection to the EU position is that it DOES NOT INCREASE in effect after the orbit of the Oort Cloud.

"My understanding was Einstein wasn't all that happy about Special Relativity and spent most of his life looking for a better expression or more complete picture of what was behind it all."
I sure hope that is true. If true, it reinforces his credentials as a scientist. A lot of scientists accept as a working hypothesis things they don't really like, but those things just happen to provide a more likely explanation than anything else known at the time.

In England they tend to call Indian ethnicities 'Asian' but in Australia & elsewhere, Asian is a group of countries east of the sub-continent. Sri Lankhan is slightly different to Indian food & both are different to Asian curries & spiced foods. Thai has a lot more basil, coriander and lemon flavours for example, Indian is more the cummin, tumeric etc.

A Black Hole with zero mass? ;D - I'd like to see that! (joke) - talk about sucked in by nothing...

How do we know there are no electric or even magnetic effects outside the Oort Cloud or even the Heliopause? I agree it doesn't really make sense for such things to be sun-generated beyond the helliopause but there could be galaxy-level effects out there couldn't there? Until we get there & find out (& I don't think either Voyager can measure such things) we are only speculating as to conditions.

npsguy said:

I am a little confused... are we talking...
...Obviously I was misled to believe this forum was to discuss real science regarding the Sun, not some fantasy land crackpot ideas.

Try not to judge the forum by what individual members say. Also, just because a group have some ideas that don't fit within your worldview doesn't necessarily make everything they say incorrect. Almost all breakthourghs in Science come about because someone has outlandish ideas & sets about trying to overcome the inertia of 'accepted wisdom' to get their idea proved.

[kaidaw]

acolyte,

Thanks for confirming there are major differences in curries; now I know, in this case, it was not just me...

Actually, from your questions, I thought you would be much more intrigued by MECOs than by EU (though these are NOT competing theories). MECOs (allegedly) have quasar-like optical properties, huge electromagnetic fields, keep entire galaxies from gravitational collapse by (amusingly) gravitational-collapse radiation, and are known to eject multi-stellar masses at extreme velocities. Their only drawback is that you have to believe in both the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny, and I know my dad shot and killed the Easter Bunny in the spring of '47 when we were short on protein.

It is kind of fun to watch you explore these things. When you finish with these two, how about a guided tour through MACHOs and WIMPs?

By the way, while I was only talking about electromagnetic fields following inverse squared laws for systems a few billion miles across, there are some bigger scales where we have knowledge, as, for example, we are NOT in a strong spiral arm or galactic field. Yet, we are rotating about galactic central at an impossibly high velocity (for all we can see). Hmm.

Question: I wonder what the nature of the mediating (thing) is that transfers quantum state information in an entangled system at 10000C!

Now, that sounds more impossible than massless black holes, massive black holes, and dark matter combined. The problem is, seeing is believing: it has been seen and measured. Its nature is speculative, its results are not, they are just spectacular.

[Acolyte]

Sept 22, 2008 3:19:49 GMT @kaidaw said:

acolyte,

Actually, from your questions, I thought you would be much more intrigued by MECOs than by EU (though these are NOT competing theories). MECOs (allegedly) have quasar-like optical properties, huge electromagnetic fields, keep entire galaxies from gravitational collapse by (amusingly) gravitational-collapse radiation, and are known to eject multi-stellar masses at extreme velocities. Their only drawback is that you have to believe in both the tooth fairy and the Easter Bunny, and I know my dad shot and killed the Easter Bunny in the spring of '47 when we were short on protein.

It is kind of fun to watch you explore these things. When you finish with these two, how about a guided tour through MACHOs and WIMPs?

By the way, while I was only talking about electromagnetic fields following inverse squared laws for systems a few billion miles across, there are some bigger scales where we have knowledge, as, for example, we are NOT in a strong spiral arm or galactic field. Yet, we are rotating about galactic central at an impossibly high velocity (for all we can see). Hmm.

Question: I wonder what the nature of the mediating (thing) is that transfers quantum state information in an entangled system at 10000C!

Now, that sounds more impossible than massless black holes, massive black holes, and dark matter combined. The problem is, seeing is believing: it has been seen and measured. Its nature is speculative, its results are not, they are just spectacular.

Cool...

MECO's sounded like too much hard work right now. Here I am trying to understand why each new level of cosmology riddle seems to invoke ever more weird explanations, & you introduce a whole new concept of things that don't collapse because they are collapsing...? ;D

WIMPs are the reason I went looking... for some reason the idea of particles that aren't findable but still affect our cosmos ticked the hologram box in my mind. Seemed to me that particles or fields that maybe enclose or are outside our 3D-imitation plenum might affect things here without actually being findable by us.

But I guess my original doubts came from Inflation - a scalar field that appears, apparently from nowhere, does exactly what is needed to produce this universe as we see it, then apparently vanishes from the scene either involes God (something I'd prefer not to propose) or magic, (also something I'd rather not propose) or that weird stuff is being made up to make facts fit a theory rather than the other way around.

IIRC, Hubble coined two things, one of them in scorn & which he probably regretted ever uttering (Big Bang) & the other as one of several possibilities to explain an observation (distance related redshift) which, AFAIK has never actually been proved but seems to have become dogma.

Removing distance or expansion related redshift would seem to allow removal of the need for Dark Energy at least, leaving us the remaining mystery of just why galaxies don't seem to obey gravity rules in rotation.

I've seen it proposed that DM spheres are the reason for the disk rotating as a whole with the centre of galaxies, but the preciseness of DM that - can't be seen, doesn't react like normal matter, but magically reacts just enough to make us not have to change our theory seems a little too big a bite to easily swallow.

If I have it right, Einstein spent all that time coming up with Relativity so he could show there are no special frames, that things are the same everywhere, even though individual points of view may show apparent differences.

To my view, that would seem to preclude the specialness of Inflation, DE and DM - all of them seem to be a little too precisely geared to ensure Standard Cosmology doesn't need changing.

So Electric Universe is interesting because it seems to do away with at least some of the 'impossible' scenarios, but as I stated earlier, like the Old Testament God and his miracles, I get a bit suss when people tell me things used to happen but they don't now without a decent reason for why not.

So electric arc cratering seems a step too far until we actually see one in action. Dismissing Shoemaker-Levy because it hit a gas giant doesn't seem logical - we have evidence of solid objects hitting Earth, but I don't recall seeing lightning gouging holes in our surface.

But on the other hand, dissing electric effects altogether seems a bit extreme until we can satisfactorily explain the lightning effects that go up into space from our storm clouds.

If EM fields do permeate the galaxy, it could readily provide a mechanism for 'lock-stepping' the galaxy into a disk that enforces a common rotation.

I'd dearly love to know what Ed Leedskalnin knew to see how that might change the way we view things; it's annoying he could do so much & leave so little information about it all.

There's a Russian group who state our solar system seems to be moving into a changing energetic environment, citing evidence that the bow-shock of the heliopause has increased markedly in the past decade. I don't have the access to evaluate how real their science is but internet-wise they seem a respectable group and they aren't indulging in universe-altering claims to go along with what they say.

Add to all this that the sun is playing funny-buggers right now & you can understand maybe why MECO's could be a question too far. ;D

[Acolyte]

For an interesting view of Einstein's life, check here

Also, here is a number of links about a Plasma Universe concept.

[Acolyte]

kaidaw said:

Question: I wonder what the nature of the mediating (thing) is that transfers quantum state information in an entangled system at 10000C!

Maybe Gravity is the medium? If the info below is anywhere near correct, it would certainly have more than enough propagation velocity (if that's meaningful when FTL But wouldn't strings be outside any time constraints? If at a quantum level all is inter-related, maybe the medium IS the message & there's no need for propagation?

Way beyond anything I can encompass I guess... le sigh!
From The Speed of Gravity--What the Experiments Say...

Tom said:

Moreover, that interpretation is in conflict with results from neutron interferometer experiments. One resolution of the paradoxes is to interpret the experiments literally, and from them deduce that the speed of propagation of gravitational force is at least 2 x 1010c. Although this is inconsistent with the Einstein interpretation of special relativity, it is consistent with the Lorentzian variant of that theory. This subtle alteration in our thinking about what is allowed under the laws of physics has several beneficial consequences. Examples are the locality dilemma of quantum mechanics and the question of the existence of singularities in nature ("black holes")

[france]

Sept 21, 2008 23:44:11 GMT npsguy said:

Sept 21, 2008 22:04:37 GMT france said:

some of you are not very friendly with EU researchs to say they are "rubbish"

I am a little confused... are we talking about the same people who wrote that the Space Shuttle Columbia was not damaged by foam insulation but by "mega lightning"? www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=cc6y424y

The same people who said that craters on the Moon and Mars were created by plasma discharges and not by metoer impacts? www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=8p6ud5jc

The same people that said we don't understand how lightning works in clouds so therefore clouds are conduits for electricity in space. www.holoscience.com/synopsis.php?page=9

AND WHAT brought about this new science? Just read this "The Electric Universe model grew from the realization that a new plasma cosmology and an understanding of electrical phenomena in space could illuminate the new work being done in comparative mythology." www.holoscience.com/synopsis.php?page=3

Comparative mythology? Are you guys all dropping ACID? This is worse than rubbish... it purposely distorting the truth. This ranks up there with snake oil and "pyramid power".

Rubbish hardly begins to describe it.

And I am not alone. A number of forums that point out "junk science" have made comments about the 'Electric Universe' website and how ridiculous it is. Even the "Amazing Randi" organization has said what a bunch of junk this is.

Obviously I was misled to believe this forum was to discuss real science regarding the Sun, not some fantasy land crackpot ideas.

not an attractive guy. I didn't read your mythologic litterature
I hope you won't invade EU just to rob the LHC. www.exploratorium.edu/origins/cern/
It's not an honest attitude, just cupidity !

See my interest for the Sun activity on one of my personnal blog (if you don't speak french you have to learn it, sorry for that effort) : protons.20six.fr/ you see, I was right and you are wrong. What's disaster ! isnt'it ?

I'm gentle with you and give the link to read two curves comparing aa indice + sunspots with pluviometry in Bordeaux Merignac (44°50 latitude) albert-nodon.e-monsite.com/rubrique,champ-magnetique-du-soleil,89982.html
you get them with 5 codes

A Ozone : a scientist said you have to take care with protons and electrons carried over the electric universe by plasma to study this electric mystery combinated with the geomagnetic field.
I'm sorry but I understood you spoke about European Union to treat the subject of LHC that actually studies the nuclear fusion with european laboratories from France and Italy. It's always the problem with abbrevations to be well understood without confusion.
You see my interpretation is not so bad because exactly the experience stopped because of the geomagnetic field the magnet substitutes. Its material is not hard enough to resist the electricity particles plasma carried on. Here is the heart of the problem. You can verify with my two curves and my other blog called "proton". I'm really in the right way, do you realize that ?

Il left you an english link on my blog forum. A wikipedia entry for LHC experiments (the third text) albert-nodon.e-monsite.com/forum-lire-129057.html#261564