The Politics of “AGW”

[Pooh]

Carbon Taxes, "AGW" and Socialist Ideology: The Means To Their End

Toward An Economic Justice Agenda
Type: Web Page
Author: DSA USA (Democratic Socialists of America)
Quotations, page 11.

"The challenge of climate change is an economic, scientific, and labor issue much more than a traditional environmental issue.

"Therefore, we advocate that the labor movement take the lead in pushing Congress to enact a massive program of public investment in energy efficiency and renewable energy, as proposed by the Apollo Alliance, which sees clean energy and more jobs as reinforcing each other.

Fresh water and biodiversity are also renewable but finite resources being exploited unsustainably. The privatization of water, another essential public good, is a critical issue in much of the world and needs to be resisted and reversed.

"In short, we need a global Marshall Plan for sustainable development to reverse the race to the bottom in wages, taxation, health, and environmental regulation. It can be funded by a global punitive “Tobin tax” on speculative transfers of funds and currency in and out of the financial and stock markets of developing nations."

Website Title: Democratic Left
Website Type: Political
www.dsausa.org/pdf/eja_may2008.pdf accessed: Saturday, September 06, 2008 5:07:32 PM

[Pooh]

Carbon Taxes, "AGW" and Socialist Ideology: On The March

Q. What is the relationship between Carbon Taxes and fixing the Financial Crisis?
A. They are both in the same Bill. Get ready, get set, Go!

---

Author: Matthew Vadum
Quotes: "If you look at page 180 of the 451-page monster bailout bill that easily passed the Senate yesterday, you will see that it includes at Section 116 language about the tax treatment of “industrial source carbon dioxide.” It also provides, at Section 117, for a “carbon audit of the tax code.” What could a provision about the tax treatment of “industrial source carbon dioxide” and another provision about doing a “carbon audit” of the tax code possibly have to do with restoring confidence in Wall Street’s troubled credit markets?"
Website Title Capital Research Center
Date October 2, 2008
URL www.capitalresearch.org/blog/?p=950 accessed Saturday, October 04, 2008 3:56:06 AM

Notes:
o IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES—110th Cong., 2d Sess. H. R. 1424 1 DIVISION A—EMERGENCY 2 ECONOMIC STABILIZATION 3 SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE AND TABLE OF CONTENTS.
4 (a) SHORT TITLE.—This division may be cited as the
5 ‘‘Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008’’.
Page 180, Sections 116 and 117
O:\AYO\AYO08C32.xml S.L.C.
1 SEC. 116. CERTAIN INCOME AND GAINS RELATING TO IN-
2 DUSTRIAL SOURCE CARBON DIOXIDE TREAT-
3 ED AS QUALIFYING INCOME FOR PUBLICLY
4 TRADED PARTNERSHIPS.
5 (a) IN GENERAL.—Subparagraph (E) of section
6 7704(d)(1) (defining qualifying income) is amended by in
7 serting ‘‘or industrial source carbon dioxide’’ after ‘‘tim-
8 ber)’’.
9 (b) EFFECTIVE DATE.—The amendment made by
10 this section shall take effect on the date of the enactment 11 of this Act, in taxable years ending after such date.
12 SEC. 117. CARBON AUDIT OF THE TAX CODE.
13 (a) STUDY.—The Secretary of the Treasury shall
14 enter into an agreement with the National Academy of
15 Sciences to undertake a comprehensive review of the Inter-
16 nal Revenue Code of 1986 to identify the types of and
17 specific tax provisions that have the largest effects on car-
18 bon and other greenhouse gas emissions and to estimate
19 the magnitude of those effects.
20 (b) REPORT.—Not later than 2 years after the date
21 of enactment of this Act, the National Academy of
22 Sciences shall submit to Congress a report containing the
23 results of study authorized under this section.
24 (c) AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.—There is
25 authorized to be appropriated to carry out this section
26 $1,500,000 for the period of fiscal years 2009 and 2010.

[pidgey]

Nov 3, 2008 2:28:31 GMT magellan said:

Working in the auto industry, I can say with considerable degree of certainty the utopian dream of electric cars buzzing about is just that.....a dream.

The EV1 was a POS. I realize people who watched "Who Killed the Electric Car" actually do believe GM is trying to go bankrupt by suppressing the wonderful electric car, but most people don't have the foggiest idea about the automotive world. It was a toxic waste dump on wheels. The liability for such a death trap was not worth GM's trouble, not to mention they lost their shirts.

The much touted Tesla car is expensive not because it is a sports car, but the other way around; it is a sports car because electric cars are so incredibly expensive. Had they built a practical grocery getter, they'd only be marketable to the very wealthy Hollywood Greenies with private jets and huge mansions; a way to make them to relieve the guilt of being hypocrites .....well except for Ed Begley, a multi-millionaire living only like a millionaire in a small home with very expensive "green" appliances the average family could never afford.

Now GM has the Chevy Volt at a cost of $40,000 and not a dime of profit in it. But hey, who needs profits right?

One could say the GEM electric car is practical for certain applications. I might agree with that for very short jaunts during warm weather, but if I only had a few miles to travel to work, a cheap $2000 used gas car is just fine. For the most part it is novelty
www.gemcar.com/models/

Hydrogen cars aren't going to be of much use, either:

www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=940

[magellan]

Nov 3, 2008 4:31:28 GMT pidgey said:

Nov 3, 2008 2:28:31 GMT magellan said:

Working in the auto industry, I can say with considerable degree of certainty the utopian dream of electric cars buzzing about is just that.....a dream.

The EV1 was a POS. I realize people who watched "Who Killed the Electric Car" actually do believe GM is trying to go bankrupt by suppressing the wonderful electric car, but most people don't have the foggiest idea about the automotive world. It was a toxic waste dump on wheels. The liability for such a death trap was not worth GM's trouble, not to mention they lost their shirts.

The much touted Tesla car is expensive not because it is a sports car, but the other way around; it is a sports car because electric cars are so incredibly expensive. Had they built a practical grocery getter, they'd only be marketable to the very wealthy Hollywood Greenies with private jets and huge mansions; a way to make them to relieve the guilt of being hypocrites .....well except for Ed Begley, a multi-millionaire living only like a millionaire in a small home with very expensive "green" appliances the average family could never afford.

Now GM has the Chevy Volt at a cost of $40,000 and not a dime of profit in it. But hey, who needs profits right?

One could say the GEM electric car is practical for certain applications. I might agree with that for very short jaunts during warm weather, but if I only had a few miles to travel to work, a cheap $2000 used gas car is just fine. For the most part it is novelty
www.gemcar.com/models/

Hydrogen cars aren't going to be of much use, either:

www.energypulse.net/centers/article/article_display.cfm?a_id=940

I don't disagree with the bulk of that article, but will say water electrolysis with recently developed nano technology does boost the efficiency to over 80%, possibly 85%. Not that that improves the overall picture.

Here in Michigan with a crappy economy for several years running now, our great governor has the problem solved by building thousands of windmills on the Great Lakes coastline. This will put many thousands to work she says, and create a green economy financed by......raised utility rates. Nuclear? No way, that's too logical. As we don't get much sunlight in this state, that probably means we'll create more wealth by giving tax credits to corporations (and residents) to install solar panels built by manufacturers located in our state.

Meanwhile, companies (and residents) using cheap energy from coal and natural gas will be penalized for emitting CO2 pollutants hence must do their patriotic duty and pay higher taxes, but "good" companies (and residents) using green technology will get subsidies.

Will the lunacy ever end?

[Pooh]

Ref: The Politics of “AGW” « Reply #71 Yesterday at 8:41pm »
Tax and Bankrupt: Democrat Candidate's Concern for the Coal Miner

---

Update on #71: Obama Radio Interview Confirmed: Audio was heard November 3, 2008 around 1:02 am on Hannity & Colmes repeat on Fox News. I heard Obama's voice say what was reported. Astonishing! (Link found.)

---

Found at: www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/opinionshop/detail?&entry_id=23562 48:33 min, 29.13 mb
Statement is located at 25:10 minutes into interview. Sequestration a precondition to coal fired plants. MIT study indicates we don't know the best way to do this; recommends start with plants using different subsidized approaches to find out best way to sequester. After capture, add transport and storage, each having costs and unresolved problems.

---

“‘So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."

Note: Democrat candidate also addresses nuclear power, with "safe" and "safe storage" as prerequisites. Senate Majority Leader Reid claims Yucca Mountain storage not "safe".

[nautonnier]

Nov 3, 2008 2:28:31 GMT magellan said:

Working in the auto industry, I can say with considerable degree of certainty the utopian dream of electric cars buzzing about is just that.....a dream.

The EV1 was a POS. I realize people who watched "Who Killed the Electric Car" actually do believe GM is trying to go bankrupt by suppressing the wonderful electric car, but most people don't have the foggiest idea about the automotive world. It was a toxic waste dump on wheels. The liability for such a death trap was not worth GM's trouble, not to mention they lost their shirts.

The much touted Tesla car is expensive not because it is a sports car, but the other way around; it is a sports car because electric cars are so incredibly expensive. Had they built a practical grocery getter, they'd only be marketable to the very wealthy Hollywood Greenies with private jets and huge mansions; a way to make them to relieve the guilt of being hypocrites .....well except for Ed Begley, a multi-millionaire living only like a millionaire in a small home with very expensive "green" appliances the average family could never afford.

Now GM has the Chevy Volt at a cost of $40,000 and not a dime of profit in it. But hey, who needs profits right?

One could say the GEM electric car is practical for certain applications. I might agree with that for very short jaunts during warm weather, but if I only had a few miles to travel to work, a cheap $2000 used gas car is just fine. For the most part it is novelty
www.gemcar.com/models/

That is the problem with many of these 'good ideas' the new technophiles think that they have never been thought of before. We are now entering a period where people with zero engineering capability start breaking old viable industries to replace them with unworkable pipe dreams.

I can see rolling power cuts across the entire U.S. if some of these flights of whimsy come to fruition. Close down working power plants by bankrupting the companies with carbon taxes and replace them with windmills!! Oh sorry that didn't work - how quickly can we build another power plant?.....
The next few years is going to be like watching drunken teenagers playing with a Ming vase. I am sure people do not realize how fragile some of these major systems are.

[Pooh]

Here Is Common Sense Wrapped In A Good Read:

Prof. Ross McKitrick: "In September 2007 I was contacted by a politician outside of Canada who was preparing for cabinet-level decisions on global warming policy. I was asked to identify half a dozen of the main assumptions about global warming that, if wrong, would invalidate the usual conclusions. Of course the topic is so big I could easily have written a book in response. A tidied-up version of my actual reply is here. I do not know what effect, if any, it had on the individual's views."

* McKitrick, Ross R (2007) Letter to a Policymaker About Global Warming. September 2007."
ross.mckitrick.googlepages.com/Letter.to.policymaker.pdf

As A Bonus, it contains a (IMO) devastating autopsy of IPCC political shenanigans in producing the SPM (Summary for Policy Makers) documents and the unscientific suppression of peer-reviewed uncertainties and alternative causes.

It also contains a suggestion for a fee or tax (for those who simply must have one) that has no net effect on any industry or economy, does not benefit any government or advocacy group and is an incentive for reducing the "target de jour".

Here is where the Letter was found; there is much else: the more the merrier! ;D
ross.mckitrick.googlepages.com/#new

Thanks to ICECAP for the lead!

[twawki]

Europe in full retreat on climate change

"Over the past few weeks EU member states have requested permission to make some revisions to protect their economies. Bulgaria, Estonia, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Poland have criticized the proposed shift to a pan-European carbon credit auctioning mechanism and have gotten the support of France, Germany and Spain in their efforts to change the planned trading mechanism."

www.upi.com/Energy_Resources/2008/11/06/European_Union_alters_climate_plan/UPI-96551226004671/

icecap.us/

"The price of carbon has collapsed. In only three months, life has become a lot cheaper for polluters. The financial cost of warming the planet has plummeted in Europe’s emissions trading system (ETS) and the effectiveness of such a volatile market mechanism in curbing carbon is being questioned."

[pidgey]

Nov 3, 2008 11:26:59 GMT nautonnier said:

That is the problem with many of these 'good ideas' the new technophiles think that they have never been thought of before. We are now entering a period where people with zero engineering capability start breaking old viable industries to replace them with unworkable pipe dreams.

I can see rolling power cuts across the entire U.S. if some of these flights of whimsy come to fruition. Close down working power plants by bankrupting the companies with carbon taxes and replace them with windmills!! Oh sorry that didn't work - how quickly can we build another power plant?.....
The next few years is going to be like watching drunken teenagers playing with a Ming vase. I am sure people do not realize how fragile some of these major systems are.

Word, Bro'!

I don't think most people have any earthly idea even about the windmills: they're asynchronous induction generators. Try managing those connected to the grid on an iffy day.

Read way down:

www.world-nuclear.org/John_Ritch_speeches/John_Ritch_eef2003.html

...where it says:

"One good example of such experiments is Germany, where a serious investment has been made to test wind power technology on a large scale. Germany now has half of Europe's installed wind capacity. This has been an impressive achievement but also a demonstration of inherent limits. Even with the benefit of heavy subsidy, the German wind program now produces only 8% of that country's electricity. Meanwhile, Denmark recently halted an ambitious wind program, having found the high costs involved in marrying a sporadic power source to conventional systems of steady power generation."

[Acolyte]

I think maybe agw = warming of the brain...

Antarctic Temperatures Disagree With Climate Model Predictions
ScienceDaily (Feb. 17, 2007)

Anew report on climate over the world's southernmost continent shows that temperatures during the late 20th century did not climb as had been predicted by many global climate models.

This comes soon after the latest report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that strongly supports the conclusion that the Earth's climate as a whole is warming, largely due to human activity.

It also follows a similar finding from last summer by the same research group that showed no increase in precipitation over Antarctica in the last 50 years. Most models predict that both precipitation and temperature will increase over Antarctica with a warming of the planet.

Then...
Climate Models Overheat Antarctica, New Study Finds
ScienceDaily (May 8, 2008)

Computer analyses of global climate have consistently overstated warming in Antarctica, concludes new research by scientists at the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) and Ohio State University. The study can help scientists improve computer models and determine if Earth's southernmost continent will warm significantly this century, a major research question because of Antarctica's potential impact on global sea-level rise.
"We can now compare computer simulations with observations of actual climate trends in Antarctica," says NCAR scientist Andrew Monaghan, the lead author of the study. "This is showing us that, over the past century, most of Antarctica has not undergone the fairly dramatic warming that has affected the rest of the globe. The challenges of studying climate in this remote environment make it difficult to say what the future holds for Antarctica's climate

Apparently what was news to them in early 2007 was STILL news to them 15 months later... I guess the whole 'learn from the past so we don't repeat it' idea has been supplanted by the 'change the past so you don't have to bother learning' view of things.

Oh... and from further down in the 2^nd article...

Researchers have used atmospheric observations to confirm that computer models are accurately simulating climate for the other six continents. The models, which are mathematical representations of Earth's climate system, are a primary method for scientists to project future climate.

I near spat my beer across the keyboard!

I regularly have to recheck I am in the real world - I find myself wondering just what is going through the minds of supposed science fans who spout this garbage. Are they aware they are indulging in propaganda or are they simple-minded victims of the media? Where are the enquiring minds who defined so much of our recent history?

I know journalism has become defined 'willing to read a press release' & investigative journalism means 'willing to go find the next press release' but I'd have thought the type of mind attracted to science would reject the sthingy-fed life & actually prefer to go look for themselves.

EDIT: OK this is very wierd... there is a word in the last sentence that apparently isn't allowed. I have twice now typed in the word s p o o n-fed & had it replaced to read sthingy-fed.

Anyone care to tell me why poon (sorry, p o o n) isn't permitted?

[elftone]

It's the Gore effect - Tipper in this case - that has edited your post. The word spoon includes the word "p o o ". Simply really . Stop writing the naughty words, and all will be well again. If Tipper agrees.

p.s. "S p o o n" is re-written as "Sthingy" for me as well. Probably a shared spelling library, together with a sense of humour. Really .

[pidgey]

Nov 9, 2008 5:35:58 GMT elftone said:

It's the Gore effect - Tipper in this case - that has edited your post. The word sthingy includes the word "p o o ". Simply really . Stop writing the naughty words, and all will be well again. If Tipper agrees.

p.s. "S p o o n" is re-written as "Sthingy" for me as well. Probably a shared spelling library, together with a sense of humour. Really .

So... our "political correctness adjusted spell checker" has a Tippering point?

[Acolyte]

Nov 9, 2008 5:35:58 GMT elftone said:

It's the Gore effect - Tipper in this case - that has edited your post. The word sthingy includes the word "p o o ". Simply really . Stop writing the naughty words, and all will be well again. If Tipper agrees.

p.s. "S p o o n" is re-written as "Sthingy" for me as well. Probably a shared spelling library, together with a sense of humour. Really .

Well I can always just make some deliberate smelling pistakes... ;D That should fool the grammar cops.

Nov 9, 2008 5:59:53 GMT pidgey said:

So... our "political correctness adjusted spell checker" has a Tippering point?

Oh that's just... very bloody punny! Truly Gorey!

[nautonnier]

Nov 8, 2008 0:59:31 GMT pidgey said:

Nov 3, 2008 11:26:59 GMT nautonnier said:

That is the problem with many of these 'good ideas' the new technophiles think that they have never been thought of before. We are now entering a period where people with zero engineering capability start breaking old viable industries to replace them with unworkable pipe dreams.

I can see rolling power cuts across the entire U.S. if some of these flights of whimsy come to fruition. Close down working power plants by bankrupting the companies with carbon taxes and replace them with windmills!! Oh sorry that didn't work - how quickly can we build another power plant?.....
The next few years is going to be like watching drunken teenagers playing with a Ming vase. I am sure people do not realize how fragile some of these major systems are.

Word, Bro'!

I don't think most people have any earthly idea even about the windmills: they're asynchronous induction generators. Try managing those connected to the grid on an iffy day.

Read way down:

www.world-nuclear.org/John_Ritch_speeches/John_Ritch_eef2003.html

...where it says:

"One good example of such experiments is Germany, where a serious investment has been made to test wind power technology on a large scale. Germany now has half of Europe's installed wind capacity. This has been an impressive achievement but also a demonstration of inherent limits. Even with the benefit of heavy subsidy, the German wind program now produces only 8% of that country's electricity. Meanwhile, Denmark recently halted an ambitious wind program, having found the high costs involved in marrying a sporadic power source to conventional systems of steady power generation."

And at the same time the green politicians are pushing for electric cars where in the evening as all these Chevy Volts are plugged in there will be a surge in demand on the grid. On a cold frosty windless night demand for energy from the grid will be even higher ....

looks out at stationary frosty windmills on the hill above the darkened city...it will be a lomg cold walk to work again tomorrow - I'd log on and tell them I'll be late - but the internet is down with the power out.


www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1038141/Greenwash-Why-need-honesty-carbon-targets-green-propaganda.html

[pacman]

Have you ever experienced the problem of finding a suitable thread to post a link? Anyway, this item appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald and would be quite hilarious if it wasn't so serious.

www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/michael-duffy/truly-inconvenient-truths-about-climate-change-being-ignored/2008/11/07/1225561134617.html?page=fullpage

We have just had an election with a fair slide to the right and leaving the whacko Green Party out of power in a Labour Party coalition. What gets to me though is that every leader in each western or developed country, all seemingly of high intelligence, swallow the AGW rhetoric hook line and sinker except for Canada who seem to have backed away from the whole thing. I may, though, stand to be corrected on this. Now take Obama for example. He seems to be a bright fellow who can figure things out for himself but has really embraced the whole AGW thing. The US of A is in for a sharp shock when carbon emission caps are placed on industry and agriculture. Then buying carbon credits from the Ukraine through brokers such as Blood and Gore (they do exist!) all to keep the IPCC happy.