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Post by karlox on Dec 12, 2012 18:43:26 GMT
Mag's , you're funny. As Karlox points out it is the organisations that are being prodded not the end product. We all know the issues associated with the end product but the conduct of the compaies exploiting the resource? Is that behaviour the thing that runs the cars, fuels the economy, lights the hospitals? You stand alone if you think that you would just shrug and say "that's the price for living this way" if your grandkids developed illness by being forced to live on Brownfield sites stuffed full of toxic wastes. As Karlox highlights West Africa springs to mind. And if the execs of such comp's will visibly pollute and contaminate our wild places what of their 'invisible pollution'? You would also be dismayed at the compensation doled out to the folk of my area killed by Asbestosis. The last of them are going now, they were the babes of the parents who worked the mills and whose only crimes were to hug their parents as they returned from those mills covered in a days worth of dust. This was the price of the gas masks, the school insulation, the industrial needs. Why should they be compensated eh? Graywolf, makes me happy that you´ve got my point... I sort of quitted with the idea that increasing CO2 emissions is the biggest problem humanity can face and just read it as the real "measure" of our uncouncioussness and ovegrall greed, which I firmly believe is leading us to pain, famine and disaster, well it´s a figure... but once you see the politics behind... well, then i´d rather talk on Hungry, exteme poverty, water supplies, oppression, corruption, war industry, conflicts, wars to come, and why not talk about the LESS than 1% of earths population that is really controlling and ruling our Global economy and world, besides democracy... which is much in danger indeed. Where are you from Graywolf? You refer to asbestosis... and we could refer to that many manouevers big companies have always been producing to enlarge beneficts either cutting down lyfe-spam or their products (programmed obsolescence) or delaying new better products til squeezing until last drop older technology... such as they will proceed with fossil-fuels... no matter Kyoto or whatever, til they get last drop of oill off the Artic or Antartic they won´t stop... Don´t like it, but it is going to happen... to compensate this I do belive alternate "green" power supplies deserve government and private support to keep on investigating and investing... But -the way thins actually are- I don´t care much about CO2, but I do care a lot about how much No2, CO, SO2 etc... are we breathing and could stand. I had one of my best life years living and studying in CA, USA, and I feel I quite understand the so called mean American type and mentality... which is really rich and varied by its own american nature... I am even able to see commont points in some Tea-Party-alike foundations and those based on Libertarians spirit, which are both profoundly American, they like it or not. What surprises me is how personal and political and rude can get discussions on this forum... we´d rather say, share and learn and listen and exchange views... Nice to see you around!
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Post by magellan on Dec 13, 2012 7:47:48 GMT
If anyone thinks pollution is worse today than 100 years ago, you are not only mistaken, but off your rockers.
The use of fossil fuels have allowed us humans that use them to live many decades longer than our ancestors just a few generations back, all from "Big Oil" that don't give two s*its about you.
It is just amazing how ignorant some people are.
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Post by magellan on Dec 13, 2012 8:22:22 GMT
Mag's , you're funny. As Karlox points out it is the organisations that are being prodded not the end product. We all know the issues associated with the end product but the conduct of the compaies exploiting the resource? Is that behaviour the thing that runs the cars, fuels the economy, lights the hospitals? You stand alone if you think that you would just shrug and say "that's the price for living this way" if your grandkids developed illness by being forced to live on Brownfield sites stuffed full of toxic wastes. As Karlox highlights West Africa springs to mind. And if the execs of such comp's will visibly pollute and contaminate our wild places what of their 'invisible pollution'? You would also be dismayed at the compensation doled out to the folk of my area killed by Asbestosis. The last of them are going now, they were the babes of the parents who worked the mills and whose only crimes were to hug their parents as they returned from those mills covered in a days worth of dust. This was the price of the gas masks, the school insulation, the industrial needs. Why should they be compensated eh? Graywolf, makes me happy that you´ve got my point... I sort of quitted with the idea that increasing CO2 emissions is the biggest problem humanity can face and just read it as the real "measure" of our uncouncioussness and ovegrall greed, which I firmly believe is leading us to pain, famine and disaster, well it´s a figure... but once you see the politics behind... well, then i´d rather talk on Hungry, exteme poverty, water supplies, oppression, corruption, war industry, conflicts, wars to come, and why not talk about the LESS than 1% of earths population that is really controlling and ruling our Global economy and world, besides democracy... which is much in danger indeed. Where are you from Graywolf? You refer to asbestosis... and we could refer to that many manouevers big companies have always been producing to enlarge beneficts either cutting down lyfe-spam or their products (programmed obsolescence) or delaying new better products til squeezing until last drop older technology... such as they will proceed with fossil-fuels... no matter Kyoto or whatever, til they get last drop of oill off the Artic or Antartic they won´t stop... Don´t like it, but it is going to happen... to compensate this I do belive alternate "green" power supplies deserve government and private support to keep on investigating and investing... But -the way thins actually are- I don´t care much about CO2, but I do care a lot about how much No2, CO, SO2 etc... are we breathing and could stand. I had one of my best life years living and studying in CA, USA, and I feel I quite understand the so called mean American type and mentality... which is really rich and varied by its own american nature... I am even able to see commont points in some Tea-Party-alike foundations and those based on Libertarians spirit, which are both profoundly American, they like it or not. What surprises me is how personal and political and rude can get discussions on this forum... we´d rather say, share and learn and listen and exchange views... Nice to see you around! What surprises me is how personal and political and rude can get discussions on this forum... we´d rather say, share and learn and listen and exchange views... It is because what "they" want to do and are doing in some states is sucking us dry of our freedom and money. "They" are more than willing to hand over our national sovereignty to the U.N. by agreeing to treaties that are nothing more than large scale transfers of wealth based on Socialist doctrine. Maybe you don't realize the costs involved, but it isn't just about money (the right to pursue happiness includes personal property rights, and money is part of it) which is an essential part of freedom. It is about freedom in general, and that's a very personal issue. That is why it gets personal and rude and political because it is all about politics. There is nothing to "learn" from each other when one side wants to take my Liberty away, which in turn places my children's future at risk. Those who are promoting such anti-American ideals are my enemy, period. So, when someone is trying to convince me that by going to work, driving my cars, SUV's, heating my home, growing and buying food, saving money for my retirement and children's college tuition.......all of these things made possible by the use of "fossil fuels".....when someone tells me I'm selfish or need to scale back because THEY say I'm destroying the planet, well to be blunt, they can kiss my *ss. There is no common and ground between me and them; those days have long passed.
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Post by throttleup on Dec 13, 2012 13:03:10 GMT
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy." John Adams 2nd President of the United States
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Post by karlox on Dec 13, 2012 16:52:20 GMT
If anyone thinks pollution is worse today than 100 years ago, you are not only mistaken, but off your rockers. The use of fossil fuels have allowed us humans that use them to live many decades longer than our ancestors just a few generations back, all from "Big Oil" that don't give two s*its about you. It is just amazing how ignorant some people are. Pollution is not worst than 100 years ago... probaly where you live at, USA in general, where I live at, in western Europe, in Japan probably... but now China, India, Brazil... within its own territory and abroad, for they are expanding... I don´t think globally pollution is now less than 100 years ago... and could start talking about oceans, for instance...
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Post by karlox on Dec 13, 2012 16:57:12 GMT
Graywolf, makes me happy that you´ve got my point... I sort of quitted with the idea that increasing CO2 emissions is the biggest problem humanity can face and just read it as the real "measure" of our uncouncioussness and ovegrall greed, which I firmly believe is leading us to pain, famine and disaster, well it´s a figure... but once you see the politics behind... well, then i´d rather talk on Hungry, exteme poverty, water supplies, oppression, corruption, war industry, conflicts, wars to come, and why not talk about the LESS than 1% of earths population that is really controlling and ruling our Global economy and world, besides democracy... which is much in danger indeed. Where are you from Graywolf? You refer to asbestosis... and we could refer to that many manouevers big companies have always been producing to enlarge beneficts either cutting down lyfe-spam or their products (programmed obsolescence) or delaying new better products til squeezing until last drop older technology... such as they will proceed with fossil-fuels... no matter Kyoto or whatever, til they get last drop of oill off the Artic or Antartic they won´t stop... Don´t like it, but it is going to happen... to compensate this I do belive alternate "green" power supplies deserve government and private support to keep on investigating and investing... But -the way thins actually are- I don´t care much about CO2, but I do care a lot about how much No2, CO, SO2 etc... are we breathing and could stand. I had one of my best life years living and studying in CA, USA, and I feel I quite understand the so called mean American type and mentality... which is really rich and varied by its own american nature... I am even able to see commont points in some Tea-Party-alike foundations and those based on Libertarians spirit, which are both profoundly American, they like it or not. What surprises me is how personal and political and rude can get discussions on this forum... we´d rather say, share and learn and listen and exchange views... Nice to see you around! What surprises me is how personal and political and rude can get discussions on this forum... we´d rather say, share and learn and listen and exchange views... It is because what "they" want to do and are doing in some states is sucking us dry of our freedom and money. "They" are more than willing to hand over our national sovereignty to the U.N. by agreeing to treaties that are nothing more than large scale transfers of wealth based on Socialist doctrine. Maybe you don't realize the costs involved, but it isn't just about money (the right to pursue happiness includes personal property rights, and money is part of it) which is an essential part of freedom. It is about freedom in general, and that's a very personal issue. That is why it gets personal and rude and political because it is all about politics. There is nothing to "learn" from each other when one side wants to take my Liberty away, which in turn places my children's future at risk. Those who are promoting such anti-American ideals are my enemy, period. So, when someone is trying to convince me that by going to work, driving my cars, SUV's, heating my home, growing and buying food, saving money for my retirement and children's college tuition.......all of these things made possible by the use of "fossil fuels".....when someone tells me I'm selfish or need to scale back because THEY say I'm destroying the planet, well to be blunt, they can kiss my *ss. There is no common and ground between me and them; those days have long passed. As you, most probably are not part of that -lets say 0.3% of the population- that besides accumulating highest capital ever in history are managing -dirtly most times- our global financial and economic system... don´t see why we can´t be in same side. We need China, India, etc to abide to fair play rules, no social dumping, reduce pollution policies... or our middles classes -foundation of democracy- will keep downhill for decades... that´s my fear
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Post by karlox on Dec 13, 2012 17:02:36 GMT
I hope it´s clear that I am not judging people for how rich they are, but sometimes on how they made their money... and my deepest respect and recognizition to small enterprisers running small and medium sized bussiness or farms... and to some "Big" companies as well... I am rather refering to Finantial Private and official institutions, including their handling of peoples´old pension schemes funds... but how do you avoid participating? And agree Oil industry development has been the source of our unprecedent jump to a modern society... and think we should keep on developping oil industry, but should care to reduce compsumtion and deversify... for it will last longer, among other reasons...
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 13, 2012 17:04:19 GMT
Karlox: As China aquires wealth, it decreases the wealth of other nations. That is how the system works. The global flow of capital has always been a moving target. Slowly migrating around the world as the incomes of people rise etc.
Once China has reached a sense of middle class, they will demand better polution control.
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Post by karlox on Dec 13, 2012 17:49:09 GMT
Hope they do soon... and health care as well... otherwise they will keep lowering europeans and americans middles classes life standards... And whenever middle-class becomes an overwhelming majority in China... World will be quite different from now... I fear their increasing militarization... will never get rid of ams races??
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Post by magellan on Dec 13, 2012 18:06:27 GMT
Wealth is not finite; it is created. It is not a zero sum game. If that were not the case, America would still be living in the 1600's despite the Industrial Age. It didn't "migrate" here and we did not steal it from other countries.
As government grows, wealth is depleted. We are watching it in real time.
Just look at the ghost cities in China; that is their "wealth"; totally worthless yet untold billions spent on building them. Why?
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Post by nonentropic on Dec 13, 2012 18:33:23 GMT
The gains from trade theorem would dispute the loss of wealth in countries who trade with China etc.
The filth of this planet will only fall when wealth is everywhere.
The hierarchy of need is the key here.
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Post by graywolf on Dec 13, 2012 19:11:17 GMT
Wealth is a relative thing? 40yrs ago the lower classes of America enjoyed a far higher quality of life than their Chinese counterpart. This will now change as China rapidly introduces our industrialised model. America did not give China the money for this. America just followed the Capitalist dream and bought the cheaper goods. That this put their own brothers and sisters out of work is of no matter to them.
As for pollution??? Could anyone tell me how much nuclear waste we had 100yrs ago please? Did we have a plastic island in the middle of the Pacific a hundred years ago? Did we have Ozone holes a hundred years ago? Acid rain? The same level of soot falling on Greenland? Oil spills? Nitrate runoffs? excess GHG's?
In time Asia will adopt the cleaner ways of production that the west adopted (and with the help of the west via the technologies we developed and apply)
The bigger concern is the cleaning of the particulate pollution is the impact that this will have on the amount of TSI then reaching the surface of the planet.
We saw the impacts that our clean air act had on TsI, with higher pan evaporatrion rates , increased TSI at the surface and increased surface temps.
This time around we have the albedo flip and higher levels of GHG's in the atmosphere to further amplify the warming.
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Post by magellan on Dec 13, 2012 20:25:13 GMT
Wealth is a relative thing? 40yrs ago the lower classes of America enjoyed a far higher quality of life than their Chinese counterpart. This will now change as China rapidly introduces our industrialised model. America did not give China the money for this. America just followed the Capitalist dream and bought the cheaper goods. That this put their own brothers and sisters out of work is of no matter to them. As for pollution??? Could anyone tell me how much nuclear waste we had 100yrs ago please? Did we have a plastic island in the middle of the Pacific a hundred years ago? Did we have Ozone holes a hundred years ago? Acid rain? The same level of soot falling on Greenland? Oil spills? Nitrate runoffs? excess GHG's? In time Asia will adopt the cleaner ways of production that the west adopted (and with the help of the west via the technologies we developed and apply) The bigger concern is the cleaning of the particulate pollution is the impact that this will have on the amount of TSI then reaching the surface of the planet. We saw the impacts that our clean air act had on TsI, with higher pan evaporatrion rates , increased TSI at the surface and increased surface temps. This time around we have the albedo flip and higher levels of GHG's in the atmosphere to further amplify the warming. If wealth were a zero sum game and simply shuffled around, we should not have any improved living standards over that of King Tut's time. China will NEVER have a middle class. You cannot understand that because you don't understand the concept of individual freedom which also includes religious freedom, private property rights, freedom of the press etc. etc. It is also obvious you don't know what capitalism is and is not. Buying cheap stuff from China is not working to our advantage, but it has little to do with Capitalism and more to do with monetary policy; the devaluation of the dollar. As for pollution??? Could anyone tell me how much nuclear waste we had 100yrs ago please? Did we have a plastic island in the middle of the Pacific a hundred years ago? Did we have Ozone holes a hundred years ago? Acid rain? The same level of soot falling on Greenland? Oil spills? Nitrate runoffs? excess GHG's? I don't recall drinking a glass of radiation tainted water recently. Is it good? The Ozone Hole was yet another fairy tale tailor fit for politicians by the same fiction writers of AGW today. Yes graywolf, just as the PDO was only discovered in 1996, the link to bacteria and stomach ulcers in 1983 (officially recognized in 1996) the "ozone hole" was first documented in 1985 and has always been here and it has to do with meteorological processes, not my wife using hairspray. If you want to start a thread on it, go ahead. I don't care to spend the time now to look it up. Acid rain is more nonsense. wattsupwiththat.com/2012/01/11/new-study-confirms-that-nature-is-responsible-for-90-of-the-earths-atmospheric-acidity/Stuck on Greenland again graywolf? wattsupwiththat.com/2008/08/25/greenland-ice-core-reveals-history-of-pollution-in-the-arctic-but-theres-a-twist-it-was-worse-100-years-ago/“But it turns out pollution in southern Greenland was higher 100 years ago when North American and European economies ran on coal, before the advent of cleaner, more efficient coal burning technologies and the switch to oil and gas-based economies,” McConnell said. Mercury is the same thing. U.S. industry omits .5% of mercury that is in the atmosphere. You want to shut down society for that? Guess who the culprit is for the vast amount of mercury pollution? HINT: It isn't China. In fact it isn't any country. Still can't figure it out? The rest of your stuff is typical Chicken Little paranoia. Start a campaign on the plastic bottle problem; 'Give a hoot, don't pollute'. What is your solution, ban plastic? Odd, we keep our property clean. Why is that? There is some irony in this picture:
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Post by missouriboy on Feb 29, 2020 3:08:05 GMT
I was perusing some saved articles and ran across this on "the Great Climate Shift" of 1976. Rather than start a new thread, I found an old thread by Sig from 2012. Seems this issue has not been adequately addressed ... even ignored. Hopefully, some of you researchers can add to it. appinsys.com/globalwarming/The1976-78ClimateShift.htm
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Post by missouriboy on Feb 29, 2020 3:29:27 GMT
And speaking of climate shifts, there are some interesting observations in this video.
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