Even a poorly educated person should be able to realise that when water is freezing
it is giving up heat to the environment.This poorly educated person should be able to realise that if freezing water remains at 0C for a long period of time while it freezes solid
it gives up heat to the environment proportional to the long period of time it takes to freeze solid.
The poorly educated person would realise that if water cools from 1C to 0C it loses very little heat to the environment but if it cools from 0C to -.00001C and become totally frozen solid
it has lost a huge amount of energy to the environment as an environmental heat transfer equivalent to the remarkeable amount of heat transfer of heating 0C water to 80C.
As for my own level of education and understanding, not one single second at any time of my life have I ever suggested that freezing water is not giving up heat to the environment.
All the more bizarre that you would claim that 1) the water is giving up heat to the environment; and 2) that the energy being given up is not the energy being released from the latent state. (e.g. the latent state energy is not released externally).
Yet you supported Numerouno in his explicit statements that the latent heat is not released externally, that it remains hidden, and that it is deployed in expanding water and as a result chips rocks and chops down mountains.
Then you proceeded to call anybody a moron who disagreed with Numeruno. Yeah you now claim to be too educated and smart to have fallen for such an absurdity. . . .yet you did.
After seven sorry months of this conversation '
There's still an amount of bursts of energy thinking' that no rational reasoned discussion has been able to penetrate.
Scientifically speaking there is no method whereby falling temperatures in orchards can be reversed by the act of water freezing during radiation frosts other than by supercooling which would be a pointless advantage. If farmers were finding scientific ideas were wrong by now it would be published as such. There is no such publication at all. The farmers texts are obviously muddled up, and confusions about the meaning of latent heat are obviously fairly widespread in America where even PhD agricultural engineers in prominant advisory positions are unable to produce an explanation of frost prevention irrigation that fits with the known science of water.
You continue to assume that people believe the warming of the atmosphere only commences upon the freezing of the water. I just made a long post that explains that the air is taking up huge amounts of heat from unfrozen water, less from frozen water and the air can be warming through the entire process. You are stuck on the idea that the air is cooling when what happened is it cooled before the application of the water.
Meanwhile, the fruit is following a different path as I outlined. The cold air is cooling the fruit, the water is applied and the fruit may or may not cool faster but heat is being transferred from the water via evaporation which could cause the fruit to cool faster if the water was not sufficiently warm to warm both the fruit and the atmosphere even while transferring huge amounts of heat to the air via evaporation.
What the freezing does is stop any cooling of the fruit while supplying heat to the entire process of warming the air.
Somewhere along the way you got stuck on the idea that the air was cooling with the application of the water and only reverses with the freezing, but thats an idea that I am not aware of anybody having.
However, in the process of turning +1degC water into -1degC ice, the latent heat is responsible for 97.5% of the heat available for warming colder air blowing through an orchard, potentially creating a heat spike 40 times higher than it would be if latent heat was not made available. The result is such that a thermometer on the upwind side of the orchard might register -10degC and on the downwind side it might register -1degC. All this hogwash that the air was cooling with the application of water were just artificial conditions you invented in an attempt to try to show our ideas of all this was wrong when we never held any such belief in the first place.
In the case of the polar polynyas, it is necessary to actually create a polynya for the effect to have an effect on the average temperature of the region as detailed in the NSIDC article on polynyas.
Nobody ever suggested that change like the actual creation of a polynya (breaking of the ice) was not occurring to experience the polynya effect and seems rather strange that you would use need for the creation of a polynya as a defense against the effect. By any chance are you a heavy drinker?
So indeed you might be sufficiently educated to understand latent heat but you sure did spend a lot of time claiming that the latent heat was NOT released externally and defending Numerouno who explicitly stated the latent heat was fully deployed in expanding ice and that the release of latent heat has no role in the formation of local atmospheric heat spikes. And all the while you misinterpreted and added ideas to our ideas to fit your idea of what we were saying. If anything it has taken 7 months for you to listen and you may still not be listening.
Even the "bursts of energy" are appropriate. There may be no fruit protection advantage in supercooling of water but it seems you are now acknowledging a burst of energy when supercooled water freezes.
In addition, there is an effective burst of energy into the atmosphere with the movement of a front and a dry wind encounters a wet spot. Also under the right temperature conditions latent heat could account for any percentage of that burst short of 100%. What is apparent in the exothermic process of release of latent heat is it is capable of being released at any rate below that which would result in a warming of the ice/water to above the melting point.
Its seems to me that "bursts of energy" thinking is not completely out of line as long as one realizes there are constraints to it.
My position has not changed in the slightest bit since 2nd of August 2013. Latent heat release is an internal energy transfer that maintains a heating object at 0C for longer than it would otherwise be. No amount of the latent heat bursts instantaneously out of the water to enable atmospheric heat spikes in a cooling atmosphere.
Sig is talking about impossible releases of heat from freezing water causing temperature rises when temperatures fall to the freezing point. The same meaning can be read from the extension service articles.
Hello! No amount of reasoning for 7 months has changed this situation.