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Post by missouriboy on Jun 9, 2021 18:02:54 GMT
UAH regional lower troposphere temp anomalies just came in for May. Note the Tropics large uptick for May ... lagging the ENSO-ONI uptick in April. Somewhat larger than the global anomaly uptick. Almost mirror of 2010-11 behavior. But they will tell me that the central-western tropical oceans have nothing to do with atmospheric temperatures ... or that the oceans must first be heated by CO2. Twenty-six years and essentially NO net change in tropical or global lower troposphere temperatures ... but a dynamic range of about 3.5 C between extremes.
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Post by nautonnier on Jun 9, 2021 18:10:50 GMT
Here is a challenge -
heat water using LWIR at the strength and wavelength of 'downwelling infrared from CO2'
Null hypothesis The LWIR will cool water as it enhances the evaporation of the surface layer and the loss of latent heat of evaporation which will be carried up and away by convection.
Any comments from 'the team'?
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Post by missouriboy on Jun 9, 2021 18:21:54 GMT
Nothing that wouldn't be censored on Twitter. Fortunately we don't live on Twitter. Otherwise we would be Twits. It is too bad that Dr Roy's team didn't set up the original regions for measurements of the East and West tropical/sub-tropical Pacific. That with water vapor measurements might tell an interesting story.
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Post by sigurdur on Jun 9, 2021 18:54:15 GMT
Very basic physics that many try and deny.
That is my team comment Naut.
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Post by nautonnier on Jun 9, 2021 19:41:03 GMT
Nothing that wouldn't be censored on Twitter. Fortunately we don't live on Twitter. Otherwise we would be Twits. It is too bad that Dr Roy's team didn't set up the original regions for measurements of the East and West tropical/sub-tropical Pacific. That with water vapor measurements might tell an interesting story. The story of 'climate change' research is littered with missed opportunities often as the people responding cannot conceive of someone not understanding basic physics or having a realistic understanding of scale/size
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Post by acidohm on Jun 9, 2021 20:19:47 GMT
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Post by acidohm on Jun 9, 2021 20:25:39 GMT
Here is a challenge - heat water using LWIR at the strength and wavelength of 'downwelling infrared from CO 2' Null hypothesis The LWIR will cool water as it enhances the evaporation of the surface layer and the loss of latent heat of evaporation which will be carried up and away by convection. Any comments from 'the team'? I think in the minds of the warmist, an assumption is made that because the air is warmer, it is imparting some of this energy to the ocean...or perhaps preventing loss of heat or something. Thing is, if you calculate the heat capacity of the oceans compared to the atmosphere, the oceans could extract all warming supposed to be human caused, and you'd not be able to record a change in oceans temps surely? It would be tiny.
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Post by nautonnier on Jun 9, 2021 21:03:55 GMT
Here is a challenge - heat water using LWIR at the strength and wavelength of 'downwelling infrared from CO 2' Null hypothesis The LWIR will cool water as it enhances the evaporation of the surface layer and the loss of latent heat of evaporation which will be carried up and away by convection. Any comments from 'the team'? I think in the minds of the warmist, an assumption is made that because the air is warmer, it is imparting some of this energy to the ocean...or perhaps preventing loss of heat or something. Thing is, if you calculate the heat capacity of the oceans compared to the atmosphere, the oceans could extract all warming supposed to be human caused, and you'd not be able to record a change in oceans temps surely? It would be tiny. Correct The top mixed layer of the oceans to approximately 6 meters depth has more energy capacity than the ENTIRE atmosphere. So the small 'downwelling' IR fraction that will be absorbed as latent heat by the first water molecules it strikes will NOT warm anything
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Post by acidohm on Jun 9, 2021 21:21:35 GMT
I think in the minds of the warmist, an assumption is made that because the air is warmer, it is imparting some of this energy to the ocean...or perhaps preventing loss of heat or something. Thing is, if you calculate the heat capacity of the oceans compared to the atmosphere, the oceans could extract all warming supposed to be human caused, and you'd not be able to record a change in oceans temps surely? It would be tiny. Correct The top mixed layer of the oceans to approximately 6 meters depth has more energy capacity than the ENTIRE atmosphere. So the small 'downwelling' IR fraction that will be absorbed as latent heat by the first water molecules it strikes will NOT warm anything In addition, a IR photon hitting the ocean surface, most likely was irradiated from it as whatever was left after initial solar rays are reflected back up. This outbound IR interacts with a co² molecule, assuming it loses further energy, and has a 1/whatever chance it is to be redirected directly back to the ocean surface (a circle obviously 1/360, a sphere??? 360x360??? Now my head hurts.....) So this, let's call it Waste energy, loses more energy, has little chance of getting back to the surface, but IF it does, it's less useful then Waste for anything..... The initial sun's rays are still flooding down outcompeting the 'Waste', very little of which is coming down anyway as there's hardly any spheres for it to hit. Simplified some of above a bit... Meanwhile UV is saying "hold my 🍻"
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Post by missouriboy on Jun 9, 2021 21:30:07 GMT
Here is a challenge - heat water using LWIR at the strength and wavelength of 'downwelling infrared from CO 2' Null hypothesis The LWIR will cool water as it enhances the evaporation of the surface layer and the loss of latent heat of evaporation which will be carried up and away by convection. Any comments from 'the team'? I think in the minds of the warmist, an assumption is made that because the air is warmer, it is imparting some of this energy to the ocean...or perhaps preventing loss of heat or something. Thing is, if you calculate the heat capacity of the oceans compared to the atmosphere, the oceans could extract all warming supposed to be human caused, and you'd not be able to record a change in oceans temps surely? It would be tiny. For sure. But they see what they want to see. Did you get back to Croatia this year?
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Post by acidohm on Jun 10, 2021 5:40:28 GMT
I think in the minds of the warmist, an assumption is made that because the air is warmer, it is imparting some of this energy to the ocean...or perhaps preventing loss of heat or something. Thing is, if you calculate the heat capacity of the oceans compared to the atmosphere, the oceans could extract all warming supposed to be human caused, and you'd not be able to record a change in oceans temps surely? It would be tiny. For sure. But they see what they want to see. Did you get back to Croatia this year? No, they're amber so need to quarantine on return. We have flights booked for August, but who knows really....
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Post by duwayne on Jun 10, 2021 16:08:21 GMT
Here is a challenge - heat water using LWIR at the strength and wavelength of 'downwelling infrared from CO 2' Null hypothesis The LWIR will cool water as it enhances the evaporation of the surface layer and the loss of latent heat of evaporation which will be carried up and away by convection. Any comments from 'the team'? I'm still not buying the "heat water using LWIR" claim. When will you run the experiment?
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Post by nautonnier on Jun 10, 2021 18:18:59 GMT
Here is a challenge - heat water using LWIR at the strength and wavelength of 'downwelling infrared from CO 2' Null hypothesis The LWIR will cool water as it enhances the evaporation of the surface layer and the loss of latent heat of evaporation which will be carried up and away by convection. Any comments from 'the team'? I'm still not buying the "heat water using LWIR" claim. When will you run the experiment? I am not in a position to run 'the experiment' - I also do not believe that you can heat water with LWIR. Problem is that the climate 'scientists' are all believers and they do not want to run the experiment - why would they?
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Post by duwayne on Jun 10, 2021 21:11:29 GMT
I'm still not buying the "heat water using LWIR" claim. When will you run the experiment? I am not in a position to run 'the experiment' - I also do not believe that you can heat water with LWIR. Problem is that the climate 'scientists' are all believers and they do not want to run the experiment - why would they? I meant to say I'm not buying the cool the water with LWIR claim. How about this experiment. If your oven has a top heating coil then place 2 containers of water near the bottom. Put something on a rack above the cups, which blocks the radiant heat from the coil to one of the cups. Turn on the coil and see how the temperature of the water in the 2 cups compares as time passes.
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Post by missouriboy on Jun 10, 2021 21:37:27 GMT
This is not THE experiment obviously. But I had not systematically plotted the UAH lower tropsphere temperature anomaly vlues computed for area overlying the World's oceanic and land masses against ENSO values. So, I did. Previous plots were only for the UAH global and tropical values. Chart 1 shows monthly UAH Northern hemisphere, Southern hemisphere and Tropical Oceans plotted against ENSO-ONI monthly values since 1979. All aggregate UAH oceanic anomalies show the same trend, tracking and lagging Central and Eastern Pacific surface temperatures. A remarkedly tight distribution. Chart 2 shows monthly UAH Northern and Southern hemisphere land and ocean anomalies plotted against ENSO-ONI monthly values since 1979. Land areas have greater variance but show the same general trends as the ocean values. Chart 3 shows the same variables as chart 1, extended across the entire UAH time series from 1979. UAH lower troposphere temperature anomalies follow ENSO anomalies with a lag of about 2 to 4 months. There is only one exception in the time series. In 1991, UAH temperature anomalies for all oceans decline as ENSO rises for a period of about 4 months. I have no explanation for this deviation from what is otherwise a perfect pattern. UPDATE NOTE 6/11: I found another one in 2004. So 1991 and 2004 ... both mid-solar cycle for what that's worth. Any ideas?
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