Grand Conspiracy

[enginer]

Americans are primed for conspiracy theories. There is always the hope that you will know something the next gent (gal) at the cocktail party doesn't know.

I walked in to the climate change controversy with my eyes closed. Even after graduating from a prestigious University, I was unaware of what we call the Holocene. All known history has largely been determined by climate, and particularly, climate change. We weren't told that.

There is even a >rumor< that the Egyptians migrated from the drying Sahara desert to the recently exposed Nile river valley because of climate change early in the Holocene.

Then I discovered the El Ninio-La Nina cycle. And then the PDO. They made sense to me, if not to Maurice Strong and Al Gore, of the rapid warming just after the "A New Ice Age is Coming" scares of the '60s.

The attached almost perfect acres burned vs SOI cycle info from the Florida Forestry Service drove the nail in the climate change coffin when added to Mantua's and Hare's 26 year Pacific Decadal Oscillation. It all made sense.

Sometime before, The Club of Rome published "The Limits to Growth, followed by "The First Global Revolution." There's plenty more room in this thread to discuss these, or you can google them. I suggest you try something like <club of rome,Maurice Strong,Al Gore,Obama> for real eye openers.

Is there a grand conspiracy (as hairball mention)? Yes. No. Well, maybe a difference of opinions as to how to save the earth. But if enough sheeple can be brought to the trough, it would certainly be Grand. For one side or the other.

Let's discuss.

Attachments:

[scpg02]

Feb 20, 2010 17:46:01 GMT enginer said:

Is there a grand conspiracy (as hairball mention)? Yes.

Yes but I must warn you, once you take the red pill, there is no going back into the matrix.

[hairball]

Hmm, I haven't had a drink since New Year so if I openly suggested a grand conspiracy it must have been sometime before that. Having said that though!:

It troubles me deeply that Hansen gave a presentation to the Club of Rome just before COP15. I'm 35 so the ice age scare of the '70's is a bit fuzzy in my mind but I'm pretty sure some were blaming carbon dioxide for that too (on the basis of glacials starting when CO2 levels were at their height I believe). In "The First Global Revolution" the CoR laid out the blueprint for the AGW scare. Of course correlation does not imply causation.

The absolute refusal of the "consensus" to consider warming to be anything other than a total disaster makes no logical sense. The treatment that sceptics of any sort have been treated is like something out of a Maoist regime. Population reduction seems to be where all of this is headed and when you read something like the UN's "Agenda 21" it's hard not be worried.

The total surrender of just about every media outlet in the world to AGW stinks to high heaven especially considering how we're always told "big oil" is against it. As the largest industry in the world "big oil" pretty much owns the media and nothing would make them happier or richer than if coal was left in the ground instead of being converted to oil.

Given that pretty much the entire wealth of the planet is at stake, and that if calls for everyone to be issued carbon ration cards were to be realised then we'd all be de facto slaves, I don't think it's unreasonable to debate conspiracy with regard to AGW. There are some very very bad people in the world who crave power.

Of course lots of people will have no intention of discussing such things, my apologies if it offends anyone

[karlox]

Hairball,

it´s not as much a matter of Conspirancies here and there but rather a Worldwide Power Game and struggle between two different economic model growth types, both fully included -in a general sense- among Global Capitalist Developpment Systems, which -let´s remind- does not implies a democratic society or government at all.

Fierce open discussions, with a lot of politics involved, as the ones we are lucky tho held in these Forums is a priviledge for the few, like you and me. This cannot be forgotten or been put aside ever; whenever any international meeting such Copenhagen takes place, you may like or not like Obama, Brown, Merkel, Sarkossy, Zapatero, Papandreu...and whatever they say, but their leadership is being put into question every time regular democratic elections take place in their respective countries. Thus they are "our" presidents, like them or not. But who, whom and what are representing and defending non-democratic rulers round the world?

Climate Change Alarms, Global warming scares etc are badly -and wrongly- used and artificially enlarged -in my opinion- by AGW proponents to enpower their position before Public Opinion in democratic countries, mainly. That´s a big mistake. I am not for that approach at all. Let free-minded scientist (should a scientist be anything else than ´free-minded´which means honestly minded?) have lots of unanswered questions and room for investigation before making up dramatic scenarios to move people´s mind to accept sacrifices to come.

Real underlying concern should be whether we put aside any enviromental regulations, controls, labour policies, fair play etc. to compete with powerfully emerging nation´s -mainly in Asia- which will keep on playing their own game using their own rules, seeking their own goal (mainly increase their political power and weight by any means), or sometimes taking the other´s approach whenever they feel it´s also for their best convenience.

If you feel that is not right that the europeans, americans and free citizens worlwide loose their jobs, or reduce their living standars, or become dependent of strong powers not subject to people´s controls, then we must agree that forcing such countries to compromise with common fair-play rules we´re starting to agree, such as enviromental regulations, is important for plain people and requires strong democratic institutions...

I am scared of "libertarian" economic growth model in hands of Chinese Communist Party people (and THAT is what they would like to have: they take from us what better suits their final goal of ´growth by any means is what matters now´... and I can see shared interest among such country models and big financial powers and many big companies... Big money has no motherland, it also supports any practice if ´good for the company´ and certainly does so with little or none regulation if allowed to.
Farmers and livestock men, oil and coal, nuke and windmills, cotton versus lycra... that´s also part of our capitalist economy... and democratic governments have always supported somehow either options based in Public or non-so-public interest pushing behind them...
But if we want to remain free we ought to stop this uncontrolled, ruless, oppresive to their own people Growth Model. Colonialism is part of the past, but this world can´t afford another capitalist libertarian revolution game in which some players just cheat at their convenience and they count for billions, don´t forget that either.

If for the sake of Enviroment we get them (China) to abide to some common basic rules and democratic principles... then we should perhaps say welcome AGW! though they´re certainly misusing ´scare-the-people´ alarmism, stressing dangers of possible future´temperatures rises´ etc., and by they I mean AL Gore, Obama, Merkel... who for sure know well that THAT is not the point or the question, in fact nothing to do with what the real game they´re playing is all about!.

Question to my american friends: Has China kept on buying USA´s Public Treasure Debt emissions? Might Dalai-Lama visit to Obama suppose a change on Chinese policies of investing hughe amounts of money in dollars until making USA a major debtor of ´free-China´?
When did that started? How many years ago?
CO2 is just the excuse to start balancing this unfair situation, I agree with the goal and disagree with the method chosen (AGW alarmism, politics among scientist etc)
It´s just my opinion... right or wrong but very independent.

[karlox]

Let me correct past post, where it says:
...which -let´s remind- does not implies a democratic society or government at all"
it should say:
which -let´s remind- does not implies a democratic society or government necessarily"

[scpg02]

Feb 21, 2010 7:32:19 GMT karlox said:

but their leadership is being put into question every time regular democratic elections take place in their respective countries.

Which begs the question, are our elections real? I don't think so. The global elites in charge would never allow that. No, major elections are rigged here in the States. I am firmly convinced of this.

[enginer]

"In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill"

If not the origin of the AGW hoax, this statement is at least the subconscious mantra of those who think that mankind needs to be controlled for its own good. (Quote from green-agenda.com/globalrevolution.html)

Let me cut to the chase. The best minds I can find think that the 2020 - 2035 period on Earth may be nearly as cold as the Little ice Age, which saw the starvation and death from illness of millions when the world population was less than a billion.

Instead of working desperately to develop new sources of inexpensive energy to tide us through the cooling period and to help the earth deal with the entropic effects of (currently) increasing population, Al Gore, Maurice Strong and even our President are seeking to institute Cap and Trade to bail out failed socialistic budgets and drive the cost of energy up so that we use less!

Entropy, that which happens to phosphate when it moves from an apatite pebble to the excrement in your sewer, can only be reversed by MORE energy input. All our resources will eventually face the same challenge.

And our government spends its time and our money worrying about CO2...

[karlox]

"Instead of working desperately to develop new sources of inexpensive energy to tide us through the cooling period and to help the earth deal with the entropic effects of (currently) increasing population, Al Gore, Maurice Strong and even our President are seeking to institute Cap and Trade to bail out failed socialistic budgets and drive the cost of energy up so that we use less!"

Enginer, in Spain this winter is so ´weird´which you can easily read or hear comments such as "...snow/wind/hot/cold/rainfall stronger/heavier for the last... 20,30,40 years etc"
you can also hear either:
1- so this is what Global Warming is meant to be? Comme-on! we are in fact going straight ahead to some sort of xtreme freezing period or glaciation or...
2- this is certainly what Global Warming is meant to be: droughts and floodings, severe hot and cold weather, black and white, up and down...depending on where and when etc.

Sorry, but I can´t buy either one!... these both basic positions are both "polluted"... and I feel you´re for position 1 -your free opinion I deeply respect - but it does not sound very scientific to me... sorry... and it sounds as radical and unfounded as the opposite one... just the other side of the same mirrow...
Politics, politics, politics... It might be fun -you can even have a nice Tea Party with your friends- but that´s not science... I think.

[karlox]

Enginer, by the way... I would be more than happy to talk and discuss on politics with you here! And perhaps you could let me say why my opinion on Obama is positive (medium positive) though I feel there is very little him and his administration, nor any power or group in the entire world, can do to prevent the collapse of our globalize economic-grow-grow-grow system which is close to occur... and that´s no ´science´ but can be explained logically...

[karlox]

Feb 21, 2010 16:40:08 GMT scpg02 said:

Feb 21, 2010 7:32:19 GMT karlox said:

but their leadership is being put into question every time regular democratic elections take place in their respective countries.

Which begs the question, are our elections real? I don't think so. The global elites in charge would never allow that. No, major elections are rigged here in the States. I am firmly convinced of this.

your elections are very real indeed! in fact they´re a Reality Show, or alike Hollywood´s Oscar Academy Awards! Very American and very Real, certainly... but very´controlled-watched- limited... well, in fact far from being first class free elections on a first class Democratic Political System., as you deserve... but somehow it works! though I don´t know how many USA citizens are aware of how endangered their democratic system has been put into recent past times and shall again in the near future... I am worried and scared of how radicalist, extremist and fundamentalist, opposition to Obama is becoming... honest people grabbing libertarian-nationalism cause due to their fear to the future... all these are signs of a sharp turn in Mankind history... it happened before, it shall again, but multiplied by the effect of Global population figures...
Roman Empire is on decline now...
That´s how it looks to me from this side of the Atlantic Ocean

[scpg02]

Feb 22, 2010 20:46:34 GMT karlox said:

I am worried and scared of how radicalist, extremist and fundamentalist, opposition to Obama is becoming...

Our system is most endangered by Obama. We don't want Marxism, socialism, communism, fascism. That's what puts our system in danger.

We want Constitutionalism!

Have you even watched the YouTubes on our system? It's called Overview of America. Comes in 4 parts but is only 29minutes over all. It might help you understand why we are so against Obama.

[nautonnier]

Feb 22, 2010 20:01:40 GMT karlox said:

"Instead of working desperately to develop new sources of inexpensive energy to tide us through the cooling period and to help the earth deal with the entropic effects of (currently) increasing population, Al Gore, Maurice Strong and even our President are seeking to institute Cap and Trade to bail out failed socialistic budgets and drive the cost of energy up so that we use less!"

Enginer, in Spain this winter is so ´weird´which you can easily read or hear comments such as "...snow/wind/hot/cold/rainfall stronger/heavier for the last... 20,30,40 years etc"
you can also hear either:
1- so this is what Global Warming is meant to be? Comme-on! we are in fact going straight ahead to some sort of xtreme freezing period or glaciation or...
2- this is certainly what Global Warming is meant to be: droughts and floodings, severe hot and cold weather, black and white, up and down...depending on where and when etc.

Sorry, but I can´t buy either one!... these both basic positions are both "polluted"... and I feel you´re for position 1 -your free opinion I deeply respect - but it does not sound very scientific to me... sorry... and it sounds as radical and unfounded as the opposite one... just the other side of the same mirrow...
Politics, politics, politics... It might be fun -you can even have a nice Tea Party with your friends- but that´s not science... I think.

"- this is certainly what Global Warming is meant to be: droughts and floodings, severe hot and cold weather, black and white, up and down...depending on where and when etc."

This is actually what happens when the polar vortex extends south forcing the weather that makes up the Ferrel cells to run through the Iberian peninsula instead of Scotland.
The question that needs to be asked is why has the polar vortex shifted - and that may well be due to unexpected changes in the stratosphere. The patterns that we became used to in the 'satellite era' have changed - this is why the weather forecasters are having so much difficulty and why their models are not working.

[enginer]

karlox, A very inciteful description of PNS, post-normal science is given here buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/ and
here wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/22/jerry-ravetz-part-2-answer-and-explanation-to-my-critics/#more-16627

Rather lengthly, valuable reading, but in short it says that reality has redefined scientific truth as scientific quality, now twisted to serve the political purposes of society. I would have added, to serve the political purposes of society as defined by the masters..

(necessary to maintain the illusion we are talking about a grand conspiracy.)

As regards the ?speculation? of imminent climate cooling, I can provide numerous references, but I prefer this one: bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/new-e.htm

Landscheidt (now deceased) has his detractors; I understood him to say that the tug of gravity from the massive planets on the liquid mass of the sun was the driving force for variations in the solar dynamo. Per Svensmark, solar radiance, with its low variance, need not be required to explain climate change, because feedback mechanisms responsive to solar magnetism are involved.

[karlox]

Feb 22, 2010 23:40:15 GMT nautonnier said:

Feb 22, 2010 20:01:40 GMT karlox said:

"Instead of working desperately to develop new sources of inexpensive energy to tide us through the cooling period and to help the earth deal with the entropic effects of (currently) increasing population, Al Gore, Maurice Strong and even our President are seeking to institute Cap and Trade to bail out failed socialistic budgets and drive the cost of energy up so that we use less!"

Enginer, in Spain this winter is so ´weird´which you can easily read or hear comments such as "...snow/wind/hot/cold/rainfall stronger/heavier for the last... 20,30,40 years etc"
you can also hear either:
1- so this is what Global Warming is meant to be? Comme-on! we are in fact going straight ahead to some sort of xtreme freezing period or glaciation or...
2- this is certainly what Global Warming is meant to be: droughts and floodings, severe hot and cold weather, black and white, up and down...depending on where and when etc.

Sorry, but I can´t buy either one!... these both basic positions are both "polluted"... and I feel you´re for position 1 -your free opinion I deeply respect - but it does not sound very scientific to me... sorry... and it sounds as radical and unfounded as the opposite one... just the other side of the same mirrow...
Politics, politics, politics... It might be fun -you can even have a nice Tea Party with your friends- but that´s not science... I think.

"- this is certainly what Global Warming is meant to be: droughts and floodings, severe hot and cold weather, black and white, up and down...depending on where and when etc."

This is actually what happens when the polar vortex extends south forcing the weather that makes up the Ferrel cells to run through the Iberian peninsula instead of Scotland.
The question that needs to be asked is why has the polar vortex shifted - and that may well be due to unexpected changes in the stratosphere. The patterns that we became used to in the 'satellite era' have changed - this is why the weather forecasters are having so much difficulty and why their models are not working.

Certainly Nautonnier, these are the ´mechanics´ lying behind and explaining what´s happening now -you were very nice, patient and didactic explaining that to me in a different post- but what´s happening now has happened before during our ´satellite era´and presumably it´s been so for ages...
Please take a look at:
www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/precip/CWlink/pna/nao.timeseries.gif
Graphs running from 1950 through 2010, this Historic NAO series are arbitrarily split fo a more convenient ´look´and presentation (four graphs covering 15 years each).
One doesn´t need complex maths to see how last graph (1995-2010) looks more like first starting graph (1950-1964) than alike previous one (1980-1995). In short: negative NAO index (in blue) seems to prevail except for 1982-1995, so I can´t really see patterns have changed, as you say, and though our technology is far better now than in the 50´s I suppose it´s not that difficult to compare old weather data, reports and observations from the past toh what we´re observing now during this prevailing ´negative´ AO and NAO index cycle, and by ´now´ I mean not only this crazy winter, but many others in the last 15 years...
What do you think about this? May I be missing something?

[karlox]

Feb 22, 2010 23:53:06 GMT enginer said:

karlox, A very inciteful description of PNS, post-normal science is given here buythetruth.wordpress.com/2009/10/31/climate-change-and-the-death-of-science/ and
here wattsupwiththat.com/2010/02/22/jerry-ravetz-part-2-answer-and-explanation-to-my-critics/#more-16627

Rather lengthly, valuable reading, but in short it says that reality has redefined scientific truth as scientific quality, now twisted to serve the political purposes of society. I would have added, to serve the political purposes of society as defined by the masters..

(necessary to maintain the illusion we are talking about a grand conspiracy.)

As regards the ?speculation? of imminent climate cooling, I can provide numerous references, but I prefer this one: bourabai.narod.ru/landscheidt/new-e.htm

Landscheidt (now deceased) has his detractors; I understood him to say that the tug of gravity from the massive planets on the liquid mass of the sun was the driving force for variations in the solar dynamo. Per Svensmark, solar radiance, with its low variance, need not be required to explain climate change, because feedback mechanisms responsive to solar magnetism are involved.

Thanks enginer, it might take me some time, but I´ll comment again on what you´re offering me for further discussion.