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Post by icefisher on Jul 29, 2011 19:30:59 GMT
Lets see if I can summarize:
Plan 1: Increase debt limit to allow some variable number of months of government operation before the next crisis and pass a balanced budget amendment that would require no more of this kind of nonsense if ratified by the states. Supported by wild-eyed radical right wing tea party disrupters.
Plan 2: Increase debt limit to allow 12 more months before the next crisis and come back up again before the Presidential election. Supported by Republicans.
Plan 3: Increase debt limit to allow 24 more months before the next crisis and come back up again after Presidential election. Supported by Democrats.
I might have that wrong but that seems to be what I am hearing.
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 29, 2011 19:35:31 GMT
Icefisher: It would appear that your hearing is quit good as of yet.
The number one option is the sane one, the number 2 option is 2nd best, and the number 3 option is untenable.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Jul 29, 2011 20:40:46 GMT
There's a 4th option: Let it all go to hell and pick up the pieces later.
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 29, 2011 20:47:16 GMT
Actually, there is a simple solution: in fy 2012 you have 3.1 trillion to spend. in fy 2013 you have 2.9 trillion to spend, in fy 2014 you have 2.7 trillion to spend.
Not a radical reduction in spending, but will give the economy time to catch up a bit with revenues. Something as simple as this will provide stability so that business can plan growth. As it is now it is a crap shoot.
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Post by magellan on Jul 30, 2011 0:13:42 GMT
Actually, there is a simple solution: in fy 2012 you have 3.1 trillion to spend. in fy 2013 you have 2.9 trillion to spend, in fy 2014 you have 2.7 trillion to spend. Not a radical reduction in spending, but will give the economy time to catch up a bit with revenues. Something as simple as this will provide stability so that business can plan growth. As it is now it is a crap shoot. Ah, but that's not how Washington calculates a "cut" in spending. If they say spending is frozen, in ten years time the deficit will grow exponentially, but at a lower rate It's called baseline budgeting. It would be like going out and buying a car. You have $20k to spend on an Impala, but there's a $60k Mercedes that's marked down to $50k. You just cut spending by $10k! Each year spending increases automatically regardless of and in addition to the new budget proposals; it's built in. So if they claim to cut spending by $1 tillion in ten years, in reality the deficit continues to grow.....by a lot. The debt will still top $20 trillion by 2020. Now, S&P and Moody's are seeing through these charades and unless they start talking hard dollar reductions in spending cuts (NOT in the rate of spending), we are completely screwed within 18 months, probably much sooner. They've already alluded to it. In fact, I'll predict by end of 2012, inflation will have picked up steam tremendously as will interest rates, and by January 2013 it won't matter who is in office or controls Congress......game over. Note there is no talk about debt reduction in the current bills; Behner, Reid, and phantom Obama bill. If there was there wouldn't be any talk about raising the debt ceiling. By raising the debt ceiling, it simply gives Obama new spending authority but just can't spend more than they are cutting, which current proposals puts it at $1 trillion over ten years. The scam? He gets to spend it right NOW. The only real hope was the 'Cut, Cap and Balance' bill from the House that Reid shelved without debate, and the current "compromise" being hashed out. I'm not convinced yet the freshman House Reps will vote for it. Behner (he needs to go too) is having a rough time reining them in. What needs to happen is boot out the rino's in the Senate in 2012; McConnell, McCain and the rest.....the fossils need to go, then 90% of the Democrats. There is no hope for anything from the Democrat Party, ever (Obamacare secured that for me). It has passed the point of no return for decades to come. And no, I'm not a Republican, but our two party system is currently the only way to shift the paradigm, and it is the Republican Party that still affords electing fiscally responsible individuals that understand the dire straights we are in. Democrats, with Obama at the wheel, will spend and spend and spend until we make Greece look like tightwads. Personally, I don't buy the doomsday scenario on Tuesday. It is a ruse. Just like every other issue is a "crisis", Obama is fomenting this into one as well. It must be done now, quickly.....pass the bill and read it later, just raise the debt limit....emergency, emergency. Like Rahm Emmanuel once said; "never let a good crisis go to waste". If the government shuts down on Tuesday, we will not default.....that is a lie. Our credit rating will be downgraded in a short while anyway because there is no serious debt reduction that will come out of all this. Oh there will be celebration and high fiving by the politicians, but it will be only a gimmick as usual. BTW, the GDP is 1.3% for the second quarter; the economy is tanking. It needs to be 2.5% just to keep unemployment levels where they are. Oh, and gold is $1627.20 at close; bad news for our country and the dollar.
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Post by scpg02 on Jul 30, 2011 1:27:13 GMT
And no, I'm not a Republican, but our two party system is currently the only way to shift the paradigm, and it is the Republican Party that still affords electing fiscally responsible individuals that understand the dire straights we are in. We do not have a 2 party system. It is a one party system and voting R will not change anything. Sometimes the boat tacks left, sometimes it tacks right but it is always moving in the same direction, to heck in a hand basket.
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Post by richard on Jul 30, 2011 1:39:02 GMT
Lets see if I can summarize: Plan 1: Increase debt limit to allow some variable number of months of government operation before the next crisis and pass a balanced budget amendment that would require no more of this kind of nonsense if ratified by the states. Supported by wild-eyed radical right wing tea party disrupters. Plan 2: Increase debt limit to allow 12 more months before the next crisis and come back up again before the Presidential election. Supported by Republicans. Plan 3: Increase debt limit to allow 24 more months before the next crisis and come back up again after Presidential election. Supported by Democrats. I might have that wrong but that seems to be what I am hearing. Yep, you've got it wrong. Plan Initial: Don't link the mathematical issue of raising the debt limit to policy. Debate policy, not the math.
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Post by stranger on Jul 30, 2011 1:57:29 GMT
A reasonable summation of the US national debt situation. Change option 2 to 9 months, though. The tax and blow party would have to come back hat in hand in April, 2012. They do not want that, since (sarcasm on) the debate would overshadow all the great improvements the President has made to the economy.(sar. off.) And for those who do not speak the language, this lady lays it out in plain enough (American) English with very few glaring errors: maxedoutmama.blogspot.com/Stranger
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 30, 2011 2:20:00 GMT
The only way out of deflation is to lower Fed Government spending. Kenysian economics only works if you spend from savings. WE are not doing so, only adding a burden which results in negative growth long term.
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Post by magellan on Jul 30, 2011 2:24:41 GMT
And no, I'm not a Republican, but our two party system is currently the only way to shift the paradigm, and it is the Republican Party that still affords electing fiscally responsible individuals that understand the dire straights we are in. We do not have a 2 party system. It is a one party system and voting R will not change anything. Sometimes the boat tacks left, sometimes it tacks right but it is always moving in the same direction, to heck in a hand basket. How did the 'Cut Cap and Balance' get passed? If the same types from the House were in the Senate, it would have been passed. So, Obamacare would have been passed? Finance "reform" would have been passed effectively taking over the banking system? The porkulus would have been passed? 800 days without a budget would have been acceptable? How can anyone say they are even remotely the same given last year's election results and recent battles in Congress? And this idea that Sarah Palin was vetted by who? Kissinger? Based on what evidence? Did they make her swallow the blue pill or the red pill? McCain was in a pickle and needed her, it's that simple. Michelle Bachman is a closet liberal? She refuses to sign any bill that raises the debt limit, and that's just a cover? And was "vetted" by who? Where does this kooky stuff come from? Allen West is what? Paul Ryan? I want specifics on this notion the 'Tea Party' has been infiltrated. Do you attend local meetings? I do, and it isn't just Republicans there either. Barack Obama's stated goal was to "fundamentally transform America", ruin the private sector, rewrite the Constitution and destroy the very foundation of our country, and yet there's no difference between the two parties? Obama did what Bush did with spending in two years and there's no difference? He's a one man wrecking ball. The recession and consequent financial collapse was caused by the housing bubble, no ifs ands or buts. It was government using the market as a social engineering playground and predictably failed. Sorry, I can't be that defeatist, and I have my kid's future to think of. I will fight on. Most people I speak with know the country is literally teetering on the brink after two years of Obama/Democrats, and understand we are toast unless drastic measures are taken to save the country. There is no reason why the elitist Republicans can't be kicked out and replaced. What exactly is it you want, seriously? This is not a game. It is the survival of our country for God's sake.
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Post by magellan on Jul 30, 2011 2:25:55 GMT
Lets see if I can summarize: Plan 1: Increase debt limit to allow some variable number of months of government operation before the next crisis and pass a balanced budget amendment that would require no more of this kind of nonsense if ratified by the states. Supported by wild-eyed radical right wing tea party disrupters. Plan 2: Increase debt limit to allow 12 more months before the next crisis and come back up again before the Presidential election. Supported by Republicans. Plan 3: Increase debt limit to allow 24 more months before the next crisis and come back up again after Presidential election. Supported by Democrats. I might have that wrong but that seems to be what I am hearing. Yep, you've got it wrong. Plan Initial: Don't link the mathematical issue of raising the debt limit to policy. Debate policy, not the math. What in the heck does that mean?
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 30, 2011 2:45:50 GMT
Magellan: I live next door to Minnesota and have observed Michelle Backmann for over 12 years. She is extremely liberal in her views and votes. She wants to tell you how to live, who to live with, etc etc. She is using the debt ceiling to advance herself to the uninformed.
She is quick to complain, yet offers no solutions.
As a Tea Party Supporter, I want hard fast numbers. That is why I put the start at 3.1, then 2.9, then 2.7. We have a huge financial mess coming at us. It is still manageable, but we are getting very close to the edge.
As a Tea Party supporter, the debt limit thing is a joke. It should have been passed long ago. Where the reallllll action needs to be done is in the House using the budget process. Some of our Tea Party supporters voted AGAINST defunding part of the EPA a few weeks ago because of the projects it brought to their districts.
Either you man up......and be a leader, or continue to be a follower. WE just need more leaders.
I wish a clone of President Eisenhower would show up soon.
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Post by magellan on Jul 30, 2011 3:05:09 GMT
The only way out of deflation is to lower Fed Government spending. Kenysian economics only works if you spend from savings. WE are not doing so, only adding a burden which results in negative growth long term. keynesian economics has never worked, anywhere. It is effectively bailing out the back of the boat and putting it in the front. It produces zero wealth, it just shifts private capital from one sector to another giving rise to a phony bump in economic growth, but falls flat in time and the economy slides. That is precisely what happened with the Obama "stimulus"; Keynesian economics in real time. It's similar to selling off oil reserves in hopes of driving prices down. Did it work? The rebound will dwarf the little if any effect it had. Deflation? Whoa. It is accelerating and in one year inflation will be double what is now. That is one of Keyne's economic centerpieces. Inflation was his cure for unemployment. Did it work for Carter? Limiting government spending does not limit the Federal Reserve from printing more monopoly money however. QE3 may be in the works. It is just too funny when people claim inflation is low with fuel (for heating and transportation) and food skyrocketing, and next is clothing. It's like the unemployment rate officially pegged at 9.2% when in reality it is upwards of 20%. Playing games with numbers. The economy needed to reset, not get bailed out. We ain't seen nothing yet.
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Post by magellan on Jul 30, 2011 3:20:58 GMT
Magellan: I live next door to Minnesota and have observed Michelle Backmann for over 12 years. She is extremely liberal in her views and votes. She wants to tell you how to live, who to live with, etc etc. She is using the debt ceiling to advance herself to the uninformed. She is quick to complain, yet offers no solutions. As a Tea Party Supporter, I want hard fast numbers. That is why I put the start at 3.1, then 2.9, then 2.7. We have a huge financial mess coming at us. It is still manageable, but we are getting very close to the edge. As a Tea Party supporter, the debt limit thing is a joke. It should have been passed long ago. Where the reallllll action needs to be done is in the House using the budget process. Some of our Tea Party supporters voted AGAINST defunding part of the EPA a few weeks ago because of the projects it brought to their districts. Either you man up......and be a leader, or continue to be a follower. WE just need more leaders. I wish a clone of President Eisenhower would show up soon. Surely then there is a record of Michelle Bachman. I want to see it. Nobody is sacred and if there is evidence of her doing what you say, then I will present it. Hey, we recalled two township boards within 5 years, long before any of this tea party stuff. I don't sit on the sidelines. Oddly enough, my neighbor, a diehard UAW brother and 'Democrat for life voter', worked with me on the recalls and even recent issues the city dweller implants on the board were trying to impose. Same for the county. Anything on the national level, well, we just avoided to remain good neighbors
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 30, 2011 4:19:14 GMT
Magellan: Just look up Minn...her votes. Also look at the house, her votes. She supported the Patriot Act, one of the worst peices of legislation every enacted. Do I even need to say more than that? Think about what she is proposing now?
She won't even vote for a bill that has a balanced ammendment provision in it.
She thinks gays are somehow tarnished. I have a niece that is gay. She has always been gay. I am not saying that I like that, but that is how she is. I will not condem her for that.
Examine her minn record tho and do a bit of research. She is not who she tries to project.
The fastest way we can get this worked out is somehow to get a law passed that whenever there is a Fed Budget deficit that all members of Congress and the President must resign and are not eligable for re-election for 60 years. That would take care of the budget problem in a hurry.
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