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Post by sigurdur on Nov 24, 2011 13:46:50 GMT
Climategate 2.0
When thinking about this this morning, I have come to several conclusions:
1. Warming of the early 20th Century. There are many varied explanations as to why we warmed so fast during that period, but no "firm" conclusions. 2. Warming during the later 20th Century. Some folks feel it is from riseing co2. But are they only looking at this from a political perspective, rather than a scientific one? 3. Alarmism. Houston, we have a problem. We have no tenable solutions. But while we all get hot, let's tax the thingyens out of everyone. We are certain we will get hot, ok.......sorta certain, but no matter, let's tax. 4. More Alarmism. Actually, this involves claims that are not proven, and in fact, a lot of claims when looked at closely are wrong.
Some true believers will believe just about anything.
5. Solutions: IF co2 is the boogy man, might as well get over placeing blame and get to solutions. The solutions, to be tenable, need to be practicle. We all know wind needs a redundant backup, which drives up the cost. We all know solar is solar. Every day the lights go out unless we store the energy. Does the resistance to nuclear, whether thorium or unranium based, show the true colors of the Alarmists? To me, this is taking the cloths of the emperor.
Most of the alarmists are really not interested in climate/effects etc. They are interested in pushing their ideas, at the general publics expense, useing shoddy science in doing so which is mostly funded at the publics expense as well.
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Post by stranger on Nov 24, 2011 22:12:08 GMT
I would not dignify what Mann, Jones, and Co have been doing with the term "science." Science cannot discard data, invent data, or hide data. Pseudo science can. And looking over Climategate II's data, all I see is pseudo-science.
For all of the veddy best reasons, of course. Ka Ching!
Stranger
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 25, 2011 0:42:51 GMT
Stranger: It really is disenheartening to read some of the clmategate 2.0 emails. The vindictiveness is apparant, the admission of shoddy science. It is sad.
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Post by magellan on Nov 25, 2011 3:25:44 GMT
I would not dignify what Mann, Jones, and Co have been doing with the term "science." Science cannot discard data, invent data, or hide data. Pseudo science can. And looking over Climategate II's data, all I see is pseudo-science. For all of the veddy best reasons, of course. Ka Ching! Stranger And yet we are not supposed to utter the dreaded word..... fraud noun \ˈfrȯd\ 1 a : deceit, trickery; specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
b : an act of deceiving or misrepresenting : trick
2 a : a person who is not what he or she pretends to be : impostor; also : one who defrauds : cheat
b : one that is not what it seems or is represented to be Someone explain how this entire AGW scheme, whereby incoming and outgoing information, data, published research etc. is controlled, filtered and manipulated by a small group of politically charged individuals and supported by cherry picked " peer pal review" cohorts, is not fraud.
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Post by glennkoks on Nov 25, 2011 7:47:51 GMT
Magellan, there is no scheme, no control of information or data. The preponderance of evidence is leading fair and balanced scientists towards man made global warming. As a semi-skeptic I have no problem with the science behind the observations. My problem with AGW is with the "projections" which have proven far less than accurate and much more of a pseudo science than the "observations".
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Post by icefisher on Nov 25, 2011 13:45:49 GMT
Magellan, there is no scheme, no control of information or data. The preponderance of evidence is leading fair and balanced scientists towards man made global warming. The loons over at RC are falling all over themselves about Jones and how he has been a leader in sharing data. Perhaps with his buddies. And that's precisely the problem! He is the guy who commented he would rather destroy the data than share it with anybody who was going to try to find something wrong with it as he participated in anti-FOIA programs and refused to do more than selectively share his data. So the defense of Jones is complete and utter hogwash. Same deal with the continued questioning of observations and the claim that because the models are so much in agreement it must be the observations are wrong. Here again its a political sense of the the only models being buddy models (Svensmark not being a buddy for one example) that creates the false certainty. And finally we get to the scheme. Al Gore as VP foisted this on us. Money greases the skids and Al Gore ensured the skids were greased. Until Al Gore CAGW was pretty much limited to a lunatic astronomer who had become convinced little purple men had spun Venus off into a CAGW disaster. This all going on while Dr. Revelle, who was a good scientist continued to try to learn how the earth's greenhouse effect operates and maintained and what CO2's role might be and until he died claimed that we had not learned enough to conclude anything. Add to the mix a lot of ignorance about natural ocean oscillations even by the climate community (first paper on subject not done until 1996 only well after billions had been poured into alarmist programs). Where we are at now is a lot of turf defending by people in favored positions with fat longterm annual grants to continually maintain, upgrade, and run a lot of computers, satellites, etc. CAGW is already the biggest boondoggle of all time, surpassing even the heavens rotate around the earth boondoggle. There may be some warming from CO2 but at this point in time there is no sign of negative consequences and probably and whatever consequences we have experienced if any are no doubt due in great measure to the same lunatics re: every other form of energy.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 25, 2011 14:18:18 GMT
Ya know, it really won't make much difference. Europe is implodeing. I am not happy to write that. From all trends, the USA is not far behind.
In the USA we have elected idiots. I am thankful that the Markey tax and trade bill didn't pass. We would be in worse shape than we are now.
It won't be long, (I am not a gloom and doom kinda guy or I could never farm, but I am a realist) until people are more worried about how they are going to pay for food and heat. A lot of folks are in that category now.
Italy had a hard time selling bonds, Germany didn't get all of their bonds sold. There is still hope for the USA, but time is of the essense. We need to elect a leader, and so far the only leader that makes sense is Ron Paul.
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Post by glennkoks on Nov 25, 2011 16:00:53 GMT
sigurdur, I agree with your assessment. Europe has big problems. They can probably keep Greece afloat but Italy is a whole different story. If they implode we wont be able to keep the contagion from spreading worldwide. However, as a nation we have faced trials and tribulations before. We may have to hit rock bottom before we deal with some of our problems but we do have the ability to deal with them. I don't think the probability of a Great Depression II type scenario is very high but I definitely see a long drawn out recession similar to what Japan has endured over the last 15 years.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 25, 2011 16:27:42 GMT
glennkoks: Agreed. It is the long drawn out recession that concerns me. That will stiffle development etc. I find it so hard to believe that the idiots currently in Washington don't have a clue, but evidence is building that they really don't.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 26, 2011 4:45:35 GMT
Go to climate audit and read Steve's blog. This is sickening, but one must learn how corrupt this really has become.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 26, 2011 4:58:11 GMT
Ya know what is so sad about the whole Climategate 2 thing?
It is that these folks used pressure to thwart science, and are such damn lowlifes that they can't even admit it.
And then sites such as Real Climate, SS, Tamino's blog etc are trying to dismiss this as nothing........move along now ya hear?
What a bunch of people with no moral compass.
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Post by magellan on Nov 26, 2011 5:48:05 GMT
At the risk of sounding like a global warming alarmist here, there is no recovery occurring in the U.S. or elsewhere. Sure there are pockets of of strong economic activity in the private sector, but those locations are few and far between and have no effect on the overall conditions worldwide. During the Great Depression similar conditions existed. Just as the experts were saying the housing market crash wouldn't happen, I'm going to predict they are wrong this time. The next crash will be worse than 2008, and it will be life changing for virtually everyone. Similar to my stance on AGW for many years, I too was fooled into believing the "experts" that the U.S. was immune to economic collapse because the dollar was the "safe" currency the world would always come running back to. That all changed in 2006 which is why in 2007 I removed all my 401k out of the stock market, so when the crash happened I lost 0% while others buying the fairy tales of our portfolio managers lost 40% and more. When was my epiphany? 2006 watching Peter Schiff who endured ridicule publicly on many of the talking head shows. It was then I decided to dig deep and find out just what the truth is. Right now there is a worldwide concerted effort calling for the dollar to be replaced as the reserve currency. To anyone who doesn't understand what that would mean to the U.S. economy, may I suggest doing your own research. May I offer this to those who either think there is economic recovery in the U.S. now, that we've seen the worst of the malaise, have been there before, or that economic collapse is not possible; from CNBC of all places: Dow, S&P Log Worst Thanksgiving Week Since 1932No, this isn't the Great Depression. It's worse. Why? Our currency devaluation, out of control government spending and unprecedented Federal Reserve printing of money. None of this is arguable. There is nothing left in the Fed's Magic Bag of tricks other than to print more money. BTW, public sector jobs are not a burden on the government, they are a burden on the taxpayer and suck the life out of the private sector. The only way out of this mess is for massive reductions in government spending right now. Oh it WILL happen at some point, but will be much more drastic and catastrophic for seniors and veterans. Oh yes it will.
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Post by magellan on Nov 26, 2011 6:22:32 GMT
Magellan, there is no scheme, no control of information or data. The preponderance of evidence is leading fair and balanced scientists towards man made global warming. As a semi-skeptic I have no problem with the science behind the observations. My problem with AGW is with the "projections" which have proven far less than accurate and much more of a pseudo science than the "observations". Magellan, there is no scheme, no control of information or data. Really glenkoks? And what drove you to that conclusion? Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil? Only partisan hacks and sheep can't see the corruption. Two separate examples show 2007 NRC review panel was stacked, except for a “token” skeptic and worked to supress dissenting scienceI'll patiently wait for your evidence to set me straight. Roger Pielke is hardly a skeptic, but I have utmost respect for him because he is honest. Liars, frauds and cheats are despicable wouldn't you agree? I put RC and Tamino in that category.
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Post by glennkoks on Nov 26, 2011 9:18:06 GMT
Magellan, your passion for conspiracy theory knows no bounds. I have seen nothing in these emails to indicate a worldwide movement using AGW to gain control. Perhaps you could direct my attention to one of the many emails that actually suggests a diabolical scheme to commit fraud on a worldwide scale?
I think that for the most part the science done on AGW is sound. There is a preponderance of evidence supporting AGW. As I have stated earlier where I become skeptical is with alarmists basing future warming estimates on computer models.
The emails are unprofessional and in poor taste but are in know way indicative of larger plot to surpress dissenting science.
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Post by glennkoks on Nov 26, 2011 9:49:28 GMT
Magellan, there are a number of reasons why I do not subscribe to the worst case economic scenario's. First off, I think that losing our status as the worlds reserve currency is very, very unlikely. Just who is going to replace us? Europe? Not likely. The Euro will be lucky to survive in it's current form.
China? Maybe but not for years and years. The Yuan is artificially deflated and who can really tell what the true free market value of it is? Much of their economy has been propped up by a housing market that makes our housing bubble look like child's play. They are literally paying people to dig holes and fill them in again.
So for the foreseeable future we will remain the worlds reserve currency which is a tremendous economic advantage.
Congratulations for having the foresight to pull out of the market prior to it's collapse in 08'. However if you did so you also missed one of the strongest bull markets ever when it rebounded from the low of around 6700 to it's current 11,500 level. For those of us who "rode" it out I think a loss of about 10% t0 15% is more the norm. A little better for some worse for others.
And I would have to strongly disagree with your statement that this is worse than "The Great Depression". My father grew up during the Depression. On many occasions he actually had to go to bed hungry. They survived by growing their own food in their backyard and eating oatmeal for days on end. Bad yes, but nowhere near Great Depression bad. I drive around cities all over the nation for work. Diners are still full, freeways are packed with cars and for the vast majority things may be tougher than they were five years ago but nowhere near Depression levels. Your comparing apples to oranges.
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