Climategate 2.0

[icefisher]

BTW, public sector jobs are not a burden on the government, they are a burden on the taxpayer and suck the life out of the private sector. The only way out of this mess is for massive reductions in government spending right now. Oh it WILL happen at some point, but will be much more drastic and catastrophic for seniors and veterans. Oh yes it will.

I disagree!

Cutting spending is not the answer. Its efficiency of spending that is important. I have lived through too many of these downturns, especially regional ones, to not know the knock on effect of a cut in spending.

Clearly taxes need to be raised to cover spending. I am opposed to more business taxes as that just makes us less competitive. But personal income taxes need to go up. Alternatively a wealth tax and go for some revenues from the private fiefdom realm of private foundations.

Government needs major reform, corruption abounds and government is in way too many of our lives. The government literally needs to put shovels in peoples hands who don't have work and drastically cut many frivolous programs and cut many programs that merely get in the way of progress. We need leadership in Washington that is not afraid to chop frills and obstructions off at the knees and hand them a shovel.

Government has way too many "soft" scientists in its employ. We have people with science degrees doing PR work for God Sakes! You can hire 3 guys with shovels for the price of one PR PhD scientist. Thats the kind of reform that is needed. Dump one scientist/sociologist and temp hire 3 guys to build infrastructure. Putting hiring freezes on 3/4's of the government agencies and only replace key hard science positions, shedding the huge over burden of a bunch of overpaid people running around doing PR for the agencies.

[steve]

Has the world changed. I think a lot of what you say would make sense in the UK too Icefisher!

(Obviously the diversion onto other topics indicates that Climategate 2.0 is a damp squib, sloppy seconds, etc. )

[steve]

I've not had much time to go through the second batch of emails. It's a shame that they've all been presented so out of context, and it takes time to find the full email to see where the hackers went wrong in their understanding.

Based on the hackers' inability to really understand what they are reading I think they really ought to open up the archive to someone who does.

Is there a good website where they can be searched? The FOIA search is rubbish, and you can't use Google to search it either as all the searches go to the home page.

[glennkoks]

icefisher, I agree with some of what you say with a few exceptions. Our military budget is way out of line with our needs. We are spending more than most of our threats combined. In many ways we are still fighting the cold war when international terrorism is our biggest threat.

Entitlements and their future unfunded liabilities are also a 500 pound gorilla in the room. Together these entitlements and the military make up something like 65% of our budget.

[justsomeguy]

We are currently spending more on defense than all other countries COMBINED. It is time for Europe, Korea and Japan to defend themselves.

[trbixler]

Nov 26, 2011 15:44:10 GMT steve said:

I've not had much time to go through the second batch of emails. It's a shame that they've all been presented so out of context, and it takes time to find the full email to see where the hackers went wrong in their understanding.

Based on the hackers' inability to really understand what they are reading I think they really ought to open up the archive to someone who does.

Is there a good website where they can be searched? The FOIA search is rubbish, and you can't use Google to search it either as all the searches go to the home page.

Seems like WUWT is doing the work you request.

The interesting hits are now posted newest to oldest for your easy viewing.

wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/22/climategate-2-0/

[sigurdur]

Nov 26, 2011 16:29:53 GMT justsomeguy said:

We are currently spending more on defense than all other countries COMBINED. It is time for Europe, Korea and Japan to defend themselves.

What most other countries recognize is collective security. This is also known as treaties....example NATO.

IF one nation is attacked, the combined resources of the treaty partners can be called into play.

President Eisenhower warned us about the MIC expanssion and potential bankrupting of our great country. Seems the good folks of the USA see a threat behind every rock and tree. I do not understand how some can be so afraid.

The diversion of resources, the creation of huge debt to supposedly combat that fear seems to breed even more fear.

Stupid.

[sigurdur]

And to top it off, we are faced with a somewhat new threat of unfettered science that is so shoddy that no one in their right mind could defend this.

But alas, the denialists have their heads stuck so far up the sand ridge........

The realists who understand error bars, who understand the science, who can actually think logically keep getting drowned out by the denialists. SS/RC etc perpetuate the fraud. Tamino is correct part of the time, but he certainly is not correct all of the time. And if you disagree, your post will never see the light of day.

This is about the best forum on the internet. I wish more denialists would visit it as it is stimulating to us realists. But without the advantage of censorship, their case is not strong enough to withstand open scrutiny.

[numerouno]

"And if you disagree, your post will never see the light of day."

Was that particular topic, on your posts disappearing and your ban on certain other sites, not just recently locked by our Admin?

-

In general, do I sense a need for an Open Thread 1.0 here? This particular topic rerun does not seem to have enough buoyancy.

[trbixler]

Nov 26, 2011 23:01:24 GMT numerouno said:

"And if you disagree, your post will never see the light of day."

Was that particular topic, on your posts disappearing and your ban on certain other sites, not just recently locked by our Admin?

-

In general, do I sense a need for an Open Thread 1.0 here? This particular topic rerun does not seem to have enough boyancy.

Yes we are all tired of deceit and obfuscation while being paid by tax payers. So you suggest just ignore it. AGW at its finest. Countries were lost by such thought processes.

[trbixler]

A cut and paste from wayne.

"wayne says:
November 26, 2011 at 8:02 pm

I thought somewhere on this thread we should reflect on what has been said by the many people and organizations funding and driving this Global Warming Bus over the cliff, and why:

”A total population of 250-300 million people, a 95% decline from present levels, would be ideal.”
Ted Turner,
Founder of CNN and major UN donor

”The prospect of cheap fusion energy is the worst thing that could happen to the planet.”
Jeremy Rifkin,
Greenhouse Crisis Foundation

”Giving society cheap, abundant energy would be the equivalent of giving an idiot child a machine gun.”
Paul Ehrlich,
Professor of Population Studies,
Author: “Population Bomb”, “Ecoscience”

”My three goals would be to reduce human population to about 100 million worldwide, destroy the industrial infrastructure and see wilderness, with it’s full compliment of species, returning throughout the world.”
David Foreman,
co-founder of Earth First!

”The big threat to the planet is people: there are too many, doing too well economically and burning too much oil.”
Sir James Lovelock,
BBC Interview

”We need to get some broad based support, to capture the public’s imagination… So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements and make little mention of any doubts… Each of us has to decide what the right balance is between being effective and being honest.”
Stephen Schneider,
Stanford Professor of Climatology,
Lead author of many IPCC reports

“Warming fears are the worst scientific scandal in history… When people come to know what the truth is, they will feel deceived by science and scientists.”
Dr. Kiminori Itoh, PhD
UN IPCC Japanese Scientist
award-winning environmental physical chemist

”Unless we announce disasters no one will listen.”
Sir John Houghton,
First chairman of the IPCC

”It doesn’t matter what is true, it only matters what people believe is true.”
Paul Watson,
Co-founder of Greenpeace

”Childbearing should be a punishable crime against society, unless the parents hold a government license. All potential parents should be required to use contraceptive chemicals, the government issuing antidotes to citizens chosen for childbearing.”
David Brower,
First Executive Director of the Sierra Club

”We’ve got to ride this global warming issue. Even if the theory of global warming is wrong, we will be doing the right thing in terms of economic and environmental policy.”
Timothy Wirth,
President of the UN Foundation

”No matter if the science of global warming is all phony… climate change provides the greatest oportinity to bring about justice and equality in the world.”
Christine Stewart,
former Canadian Minister of the Environment

”The only way to get our society to truly change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe.”
Emeritus Professor Daniel Botkin

”Isn’t the only hope for the planet that the industrialized civilizations collapse? Isn’t it our responsibility to bring that about?”
Maurice Strong,
Founder of the UN Environmental Program

”A massive campaign must be launched to de-develop the United States. De-Development means bringing our economic system into line with the realities of ecology and the world resource situation.”
Paul Ehrlich,
Professor of Population Studies,
Author: “Population Bomb”, “Ecoscience”

”If I were reincarnated I would wish to return to earth as a killer virus to lower human population levels.”
Prince Phillip, Duke of Edinburgh,
husband of Queen Elizabeth II,
Patron of the Patron of the World Wildlife Foundation

”The only hope for the world is to make sure there is not another United States. We can’t let other countries have the same number of cars, the amount of industrialization we have in the US. We have to stop these third World countries right where they are.”
Michael Oppenheimerm
Environmental Defense Fund

”Global Sustainability requires the deliberate quest of poverty, reduced resource consumption and set levels of mortality control.”
Professor Maurice King

”Current lifestyles and consumption patterns of the affluent middle class – involving high meat intake, use of fossil fuels, appliances, air-conditioning, and suburban housing – are not sustainable.”
Maurice Strong,
Rio Earth Summit

”Complex technology of any sort is an assault on the human dignity. It would be little short of disastrous for us to discover a source of clean, cheap, abundant energy, because of what we might do with it.”
Amory Lovins,
Rocky Mountain Institute

”I suspect that eradicating small pox was wrong. it played an important part in balancing ecosystems.”
John Davis,
Editor of Earth First! Journal

( These quotes are now easily cut and pasted to email you can sent to friends who might wonder what all of the fuss is about global warming. Not many realize just how deep it reaches. )"

wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/22/climategate-2-0/

[numerouno]

Now it only remains for the sceptics to research whether the people above actually said what they're claimed to have said ...

[icefisher]

Nov 26, 2011 18:54:33 GMT sigurdur said:

And to top it off, we are faced with a somewhat new threat of unfettered science that is so shoddy that no one in their right mind could defend this.

But alas, the denialists have their heads stuck so far up the sand ridge........

The realists who understand error bars, who understand the science, who can actually think logically keep getting drowned out by the denialists. SS/RC etc perpetuate the fraud. Tamino is correct part of the time, but he certainly is not correct all of the time. And if you disagree, your post will never see the light of day.

This is about the best forum on the internet. I wish more denialists would visit it as it is stimulating to us realists. But without the advantage of censorship, their case is not strong enough to withstand open scrutiny.

Which says a lot about scientists that appear to actually believe it. Trenberth with "The Travesty" and Hansen with his little purple men tipping the balance on Venus.

Being a nut or an idiot does not mean you cannot earn a PhD. Thats just a fact!

Trbixler's post shows that in fact for a lot of people they don't even need to think about it. For them truth is inconsequential to any facts. They base their reasoning upon a religious belief.

They are the worst kind of human being there is. They are the Salem village leaders, where Calvinistic austerity and hard work is what other people are supposed to do. Thus they turn to a hard sell on any program that fits their agenda, without reasoning.

It seems that AGW promoting websites cannot sustain themselves without a heavy hand of censorship.

You should take it as a compliment they harrass you. They harrass anybody who has a reasonable argument. They allow ill considered skeptic comments in as strawmen, so they can show a front of balance.

[trbixler]

Nov 27, 2011 14:01:53 GMT numerouno said:

Now it only remains for the sceptics to research whether the people above actually said what they're claimed to have said ...

Google has hits on most of the quotes. Of course it may be a self fulfilling prophesy. Of course funny when one watches the characters of Climategate 2.0 speak the quotes seem to fit their thinking. Looks like a quack, quacks like a quack must be a tax payer supported "scientist".

www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/the-pursuit-of-happiness-average-americans-versus-environmentalists/

[trbixler]

Facts what facts. It is hard to get AGW experts and supporters to actually produce facts.

"An Open Letter to Dr. Phil Jones of the UEA CRU"

"OK, so you are a serial liar. Like I said, I’ve made my peace with that. It used to rankle me, but not any more. I just accepted that you can’t be trusted and I moved on. I do have compassion for you, Dr. Jones. None of you guys set out to do the ugly things you ended up doing. You all got caught by Noble Cause Corruption, by the vision of being smarter than everyone else and of being the only people standing between us and global destruction. It’s heady, treacherous stuff.

I have been a victim of that same self-delusion myself. I understand the sweet seduction that arises from the conviction that your mission is of vital, crucial importance to the whole planet. However, I quit that kind of nonsense around the time the sixties wound down … but again I digress. I have compassion for your position, and I was, although not satisfied, at least at ease with the outcome.

So if I made my peace with you, why am I writing this letter now?

I’m writing because in response to the new Climategate 2.0 email release, over at the UEA website, you have a new post in which you are up to your old tricks, trying to peanut-butter up the cracks in your stories. Inter alia, you are attempting to explain the following two quotes. First, the new release of emails revealed that you had written:

Email 2440: “I’ve been told that IPCC is above national FOI Acts. One way to cover yourself and all those working in AR5 would be to delete all emails at the end of the process”

Your explanation of your statement is this:

At the end of the IPCC process, chapters, formal comments and responses are all published and that is the appropriate place for this information. It is important that scientists should be allowed free and frank discussion during the writing process. I might also point out that I decided not to take part in AR5 because of the time commitment it requires."



wattsupwiththat.com/2011/11/27/an-open-letter-to-dr-phil-jones-of-the-uea-cru/#more-52007