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Post by scpg02 on Dec 9, 2014 7:03:42 GMT
As a complete outsider, I have never understand the expression "America to fail". Could someone please explain? Democracy is just another form of totalitarian state. The United States is a Constitutional Republic. It is on the brink of no longer being that. Our Constitution is the only thing standing between freedom and global totalitarianism.
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Post by kiwistonewall on Dec 9, 2014 7:52:56 GMT
As a complete outsider, I have never understand the expression "America to fail". Could someone please explain? Democracy is just another form of totalitarian state. The United States is a Constitutional Republic. It is on the brink of no longer being that. Our Constitution is the only thing standing between freedom and global totalitarianism. I disagree. Your judges reinterpret the constitution as they wish, and half (or more) of your politicians ignore it. It is the people! Once Americans lose what it means to be an American (historically) then you are gone. England is almost gone! Mass immigration of folk who don't share historical values has been used by the left to destroy our heritage. The constitution is meaningless if not held in the hearts of Americans. Best of luck with your country. We in the rest of the West know how important it is for America to stand firm.
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Post by scpg02 on Dec 9, 2014 16:00:03 GMT
Your judges reinterpret the constitution as they wish, and half (or more) of your politicians ignore it. which is why I said it was almost gone.
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Post by kiwistonewall on Dec 9, 2014 21:36:00 GMT
Some Random thoughts: The American system is loosely modeled on the Roman Republic, (Senate etc) which lasted about 450 years (from the last king (ca.500BC) till about 50BC when Julius took absolute control. Asimov's Foundation series was also modeled on the Decline & fall of the Roman Empire. My point being is that all systems (political, biological etc) tend to decay over time, and need renewal or they eventually are replaced, usually by something worse. Rome fell due to several factors (on which there is much argument) from lead poisoning of the elite, to moral corruption, to mass immigration of Barbarians (and the use of them in the legions!) Read the meditations of Marcus Aurelius to get an idea of the striving after moral perfection of the Classical Romans, classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.1.one.html"From my grandfather Verus I learned good morals and the government of my temper. From the reputation and remembrance of my father, modesty and a manly character. From my mother, piety and beneficence, and abstinence, not only from evil deeds, but even from evil thoughts; and further, simplicity in my way of living, far removed from the habits of the rich. From my great-grandfather, not to have frequented public schools, and to have had good teachers at home, and to know that on such things a man should spend liberally. From my governor, to be neither of the green nor of the blue party at the games in the Circus, nor a partizan either of the Parmularius or the Scutarius at the gladiators' fights; from him too I learned endurance of labour, and to want little, and to work with my own hands, and not to meddle with other people's affairs, and not to be ready to listen to slander. " England (at the time of the American Revolution) was heavily educated in the Roman Classical traditions, as well as having a strong Christian tradition - the two moral streams, while different, worked together - so with Wilberforce(Christian) and William Pitt (the younger)(Classical upbringing) William Wilberforce said that, "For personal purity, disinterestedness and love of this country, I have never known his equal." Modern folk are mostly neither Christian or Classical Roman, simply Pagan. These two highly respected each other, though Pitt was never a "Christian" in the evangelical sense. Pitt, by the way, supported the right of the Americans to independence, but the bulk of the British parliament was not so noble. Together, those two managed to outlaw the slave trade - the wealth of many in Britain had been built on the slave trade! - and the story is that those for outlawing the slave trade gave the worse of the opposing members of parliament free tickets to horse races or some such to get them away from parliament for the vote. The two streams of classical scholarship, and (traditional) evangelicalism was the background of the founding fathers. (Modern Evangelicalism tends to be "pietistic" - that is, focused narrowly on the faith, and ignoring politics) Another interesting fact is that the Revivals of Edwards and George Whitfield prior to the American Revolution, were highly political, with the preachers of the day giving sermons on freedom and liberty (oh, look , "oil" in the link) oll.libertyfund.org/titles/sandoz-political-sermons-of-the-american-founding-era-vol-1-1730-1788--5#lf0018-01_label_339These days, the preachers preach Government control and green alarmism. Even conservative preachers hardly touch the subject of liberty. How the mighty have fallen. We need a bit of the very old-time Religion!
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Post by scpg02 on Dec 10, 2014 0:45:16 GMT
Did you watch the YouTube I posted "Overview of America"? I'd like your thoughts on it.
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Post by glennkoks on Dec 10, 2014 0:58:40 GMT
Pardon me for invoking Godwin's Law but IMHO the CIA acted like the Gestapo. Lost in the eagerness to get intelligence we ignored our own laws that separate us from them. In addition to acting like Himmler's hit squad the CIA lied to Congress.
We have to be extremely cautious of any clandestine organization that ignores and lies to Congress and uses techniques like "torture".
Were better than that.
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Post by walnut on Dec 10, 2014 1:23:16 GMT
On the other hand, that "torture" does not sound a whole lot worse than what I saw done in the 101st Airborne Division. I saw violence, brutality, and psychological punishment. It can be worse for the front line troops in training than you might think sometimes.
It is not like they were pulling fingernails off or anything. "Torture" is definitely a matter of degree, and this seems like pretty low-level torture. And these guys were not found in cake sales or PTA meetings either. Sleep deprivation? Threats of violence? This is a particularly vile enemy who won't wear an identifiable uniform and who hides behind women and children.
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Post by glennkoks on Dec 10, 2014 1:56:39 GMT
walnut,
It was not as "low level" as some would have you believe. Bottom line is we are a nation of laws. You don't have to become the enemy to beat them.
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Post by magellan on Dec 11, 2014 1:22:16 GMT
Pardon me for invoking Godwin's Law but IMHO the CIA acted like the Gestapo. Lost in the eagerness to get intelligence we ignored our own laws that separate us from them. In addition to acting like Himmler's hit squad the CIA lied to Congress. We have to be extremely cautious of any clandestine organization that ignores and lies to Congress and uses techniques like "torture". Were better than that. How many lives do you suppose Himmler's hit squad saved? This isn't news. This was just another Democrat "hit squad" by FrankenFeinstein @ co. saved for an appropriate time to use as another distraction (and against her enemies in the CIA) and only places the country at more risk. They didn't interview one CIA operative during their "investigation" and they had oversight of the the CIA during that entire time yet didn't debrief the CIA director. Of course, using the IRS/EPA/NSA et al to target political enemies is fine. Leaving Americans to die at Benghazi, that's ok too. Gun running to Mexico.....how many died from that? Those Drone strikes sure don't torture anyone. All this self-righteous talk that "we're better than that".....yeah ok. If your daughter were kidnapped and you had one of the scum that did it and he had information, of course you wouldn't do any sort of "torture" now would you? Oh no, you're better than that. Personally, I'd beat the living *hit of them until they talked. Oh no, you'd never do that. Obama gets in front of a camera and lies straight in the faces of Americans. In fact, Obama has been lying since his first day in office, blatantly violates the Constitution, breaks laws, makes laws that don't exist, tells his minions to punish his enemies and you think he's just another guy in the White House. If any president is deserving of impeachment it is him. His AG should be in prison. Why isn't Lois Lerner in jail?
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Post by magellan on Dec 11, 2014 1:46:54 GMT
My dad was at Guadalcanal for 18+ months during WWII beginning in October 1941 as I recall. He told me when it was discovered the Japanese slaughtered captured Americans, then cut off their genitals as a final humiliation, no more Japanese were taken prisoner. What do you think glennkoks, should American soldiers on Guadalcanal have been tried for war crimes?
War sucks doesn't it? Maybe 911 didn't really happen.
Obama frees thousands of illegals imprisoned for violent crimes including rape back into the public, frees terrorists from Gitmo to commit for terrorist acts. Explain how that is not "torture" of the American people?
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Post by glennkoks on Dec 11, 2014 1:56:31 GMT
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Franklin's Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775
Magellan,
Just how much torture, mayhem and murder are you advocating in the name of justice? During WWII we were fighting the military of a foreign nation. They wore a uniform, gave no quarter and expected none. Terrorists do not wear a uniform. Rounding up the usual civilian suspects and torturing them until they talk is not my view of what I want for this nation.
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Post by walnut on Dec 11, 2014 2:27:07 GMT
More torture than that, as long as they are going to take the rap for it. We had longer sleep deprivation and took harder beatings than that in the 101st Airborne training 30 years ago. I never heard any liberal hand wringers speaking up for those 19 year olds.
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Post by glennkoks on Dec 11, 2014 2:50:43 GMT
walnut,
Did you endure water boarding in your training with the 101st? Rectal Feeding? Personally I do not see this as "liberal hand wringing". I do not want any authorized police agency endorsing torture and lying to Congress.
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Post by magellan on Dec 11, 2014 2:53:48 GMT
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Franklin's Contributions to the Conference on February 17 (III) Fri, Feb 17, 1775 Magellan, Just how much torture, mayhem and murder are you advocating in the name of justice? During WWII we were fighting the military of a foreign nation. They wore a uniform, gave no quarter and expected none. Terrorists do not wear a uniform. Rounding up the usual civilian suspects and torturing them until they talk is not my view of what I want for this nation. Explain how terrorists are giving up essential liberty and what rights they have to begin with. They are not covered by the Geneva Convention or any other convention precisely because they don't wear uniforms. In WWII "civilians" were executed for aiding and abetting the enemy. Germany sent saboteurs to America, not in uniform; looked like any other American. Eight were executed. Ever read about the Revolutionary War? Apparently not. As walnut stated, soldiers are put through more "torture" than these scumbags you are defending. Feinstein and her ilk are the sames that defended the procedure in the video below, and the ones that are still legal for killing ~1 million of the most innocent among us. Obama did not vote for a bill when Senator that protected surviving babies from botched abortions. And you're concerned about making life a bit uncomfortable for a few human debris that would not blink an eye sawing off the head of your family.
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Post by magellan on Dec 11, 2014 2:55:29 GMT
walnut, Did you endure water boarding in your training with the 101st? Rectal Feeding? Personally I do not see this as "liberal hand wringing". I do not want any authorized police agency endorsing torture and lying to Congress. Talk to former SEALs which you think can replace armies and ask what they endure. If they can't muster it, they don't get it.
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