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Post by sigurdur on Dec 12, 2014 2:08:39 GMT
You might well be correct, I don't know. The CIA apparently would have disagreed at that time. But the main premise of the liberal outrage after the report is that the US acted wrongly, not that the measurable quality of their work was poor, although that was mentioned too. Heck, they would even tell you that the only factor that influences climate is CO2! And we all know that is 100% wrong.
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 13, 2014 2:54:21 GMT
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Post by icefisher on Dec 13, 2014 15:30:50 GMT
Its a myth that torture does not produce credible intel. Armies have been doing it since the beginning of time because it does. Of course what an individual gives up or does not give up varies widely from person to person. There is no black and white here either for or against the notion as you mileage always varies. The only thing going on in this discussion is politics, morality, and appearances.
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Post by walnut on Dec 13, 2014 17:18:56 GMT
Something apparently did work, I think I am surprised worse did not happen. It does not seem that difficult a trick to set off a bomb in an important place to me. McVeigh managed it. Whatever they have been doing, keep on doing it.
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Post by magellan on Dec 14, 2014 2:32:42 GMT
How many lives do you suppose Himmler's hit squad saved? This isn't news. This was just another Democrat "hit squad" by FrankenFeinstein @ co. saved for an appropriate time to use as another distraction (and against her enemies in the CIA) and only places the country at more risk. They didn't interview one CIA operative during their "investigation" and they had oversight of the the CIA during that entire time yet didn't debrief the CIA director. Of course, using the IRS/EPA/NSA et al to target political enemies is fine. Leaving Americans to die at Benghazi, that's ok too. Gun running to Mexico.....how many died from that? Those Drone strikes sure don't torture anyone. All this self-righteous talk that "we're better than that".....yeah ok. If your daughter were kidnapped and you had one of the scum that did it and he had information, of course you wouldn't do any sort of "torture" now would you? Oh no, you're better than that. Personally, I'd beat the living *hit of them until they talked. Oh no, you'd never do that. Obama gets in front of a camera and lies straight in the faces of Americans. In fact, Obama has been lying since his first day in office, blatantly violates the Constitution, breaks laws, makes laws that don't exist, tells his minions to punish his enemies and you think he's just another guy in the White House. If any president is deserving of impeachment it is him. His AG should be in prison. Why isn't Lois Lerner in jail? Magellan: I can't give too much away here, but torture doesn't produce credible intel. Obviously, if they have nothing substantive to offer, no amount or type of interrogation will produce credible intel. In the case of KSM, I beg to differ. A weak person will break sooner. A stronger person will break later. A committed person to an ideology may never break. KSM was both strong and committed, but he broke. So claims that "torture" doesn't produce credible intel is wrong. I've read accounts of WWII interrogations of U.S. handling of POW's that sang like birds after a little persuasion. Something as simple as in the heat of battle playing fake Russian Roulette or severe as swinging a shovel upside the head brought swift and immediate intel to save the lives of their fellow soldiers when minutes matter. Please, stop the nonsense that torture "doesn't produce credible intel". So let's put forth a scenario. ISIS claims they have dirty bombs www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/12/04/ISIS-Claims-To-Have-Made-Dirty-Bomb-With-Uranium-Stolen-From-Mosul-University. Intel says they have the names of top level ISIS leaders, and that a plan to use the dirty bomb in an undisclosed location in the U.S. or Europe is underway. Someone (maybe the truck driver) was captured that is believed to have information about the plan. Question: What course of action should be taken with the prisoner?
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Post by douglavers on Dec 14, 2014 3:48:53 GMT
I described a similar scenario in a book of mine.
I find torture totally abhorrent, but to claim that it is out of bounds under all circumstances is stupid.
In a number of Middle Eastern Countries, infested with fanatics who want to kill civilians in job lots with suicide bombs, torture has been found to be the only [mostly] workable control method.
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 14, 2014 15:32:38 GMT
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Post by missouriboy on Dec 14, 2014 16:12:07 GMT
The chickens are returning to their "true believer" roosts! And they're hungry.
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Post by nautonnier on Dec 14, 2014 16:13:13 GMT
You might well be correct, I don't know. The CIA apparently would have disagreed at that time. But the main premise of the liberal outrage after the report is that the US acted wrongly, not that the measurable quality of their work was poor, although that was mentioned too. When you torture someone, they will tell you 2+2=5 if that is what you want to hear. Torture just does NOT produce credible intel. It is not quite that simple - the questioner always asks a lot of questions to which they already know the answers a lot of it peripheral and they feed some of the information that the subject didn't know they knew into the questions so the person being questioned is never certain if the questioner already knows or not. If the subject produces an answer known to be false it is made immediately painful. So the the questioner does not prompt for answers and the subject does not know the answer the questioner wants - but knows that the questioner knows more than was thought. In a previous existence I went through a lot of uncomfortable training in that area. Nothing is quite as simple as it is proclaimed in the press or films.
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Post by nautonnier on Dec 14, 2014 17:16:37 GMT
The chickens are returning to their "true believer" roosts! And they're hungry. There is a good chance that the lights and furnaces will go out this winter - then as the deaths from cold rise one wonders how long before common sense breaks through? In UK they have without problem taken no notice of 5000 a month dying from cold in energy poverty - SO I would think that New England will do the same and ignore deaths of the poor from cold. After all that fits the progressive view that the old are low on QALYs so it is for the general good that they die off early.
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 14, 2014 17:21:08 GMT
I have looked at alternative energy sources. No matter how I try I can't cost justify them. Maybe just for a home? But I need large reserves. When I turn on my pumps, 20hp and 8 1/2 HP I need voltage. To keep them running i need amps. And that is just the pumps.
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 14, 2014 17:23:19 GMT
When you torture someone, they will tell you 2+2=5 if that is what you want to hear. Torture just does NOT produce credible intel. It is not quite that simple - the questioner always asks a lot of questions to which they already know the answers a lot of it peripheral and they feed some of the information that the subject didn't know they knew into the questions so the person being questioned is never certain if the questioner already knows or not. If the subject produces an answer known to be false it is made immediately painful. So the the questioner does not prompt for answers and the subject does not know the answer the questioner wants - but knows that the questioner knows more than was thought. In a previous existence I went through a lot of uncomfortable training in that area. Nothing is quite as simple as it is proclaimed in the press or films. My experience with enhanced interrogation did not produce desired results.
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Post by walnut on Dec 14, 2014 18:17:13 GMT
In other words Sig, we are armchair quarterbacks and you were a real quarterback?
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Post by sigurdur on Dec 14, 2014 20:40:24 GMT
In other words Sig, we are armchair quarterbacks and you were a real quarterback? In other words. The end result produxed US soilders deaths because the Intel was faulty. Maybe it works? I had not observed that.
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Post by icefisher on Dec 14, 2014 20:41:08 GMT
I have looked at alternative energy sources. No matter how I try I can't cost justify them. Maybe just for a home? But I need large reserves. When I turn on my pumps, 20hp and 8 1/2 HP I need voltage. To keep them running i need amps. And that is just the pumps. What are the big pumps for? Irrigation? It is true that the majority of commercially available alternative energy solutions are not cost effective even over the long run. That is because the most efficient gathering and storage of energy is very highly architecturally/geographically specific and to maximize the cost efficiency of a potential solution you have to custom build it. Most often its not cost efficient to do that to replace an already working system. There are some solutions, almost no-brainer stuff, that should be more popular. . . .like not storing unused hot water for later use (conventional water heating system). On demand water heating is far more efficient and when combined with a storage of passively heated water its even more efficient. Space heating is very architecturally based and can be done for less, over the long run, than conventionally heated spaces if originally designed into the structure. But we are probably quite away from running a tractor efficiently on something other than fossil fuels.
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