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Post by numerouno on Sept 2, 2013 10:16:40 GMT
Why did the warmness of the ice not melt all ice away then?
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 10:40:53 GMT
Andrew: I understand the process and the mechanics very well. Published references, which are used annually, have been provided. Even in Finland it seems to be understood. Once again. The thermal joules of sensible heat of the applied water do NOT provide much warmth. Oooooofta. I think I will just give up trying to educate you. You are totally out of your league on this subject. Good luck. Of course the joules of latent heat are relevant to the process you moron But that does not mean that your beliefs are correct How many times does it have to be explained to you? ? So help me if you once more tell me that latent heat is relevant to the process of keeping the plants warmer and therefore i am wrong, i am going to get on a bloody plane and track you down and thump you one. And i already know your name, address, telephone number what the side of your head looks like (apparently) and you are the guy with a limp! (apparently)
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 10:46:51 GMT
ice cold water has less ability to provide a heat source than the slightly warmer unfrozen water had prior to freezing. Therefore, once ice begins forming on the plants, the environment immediately next to that ice must be colder than prior to ice formation Irrelevant. You are trying to create a false frame of reference. The frame of reference is not the temperature of the ice cold water. The frame of reference is that to create a damaging frost the ambient temperature must be below freezing, colder than the ice cold water. If the ambient temperature is not colder the water simply will not freeze. Farmers that rely on this strategy are not afraid of 32F temperatures because they are not ignorant boobs who think their crops are going to freeze at that temperature. Bullshit it is relevant and i am not trying to create anything other than your education. This is not some stupid game where we all get to be winners. Reality is what decides the result. The temperature of ice cold water is protecting the plants. Less than the temperature of ice cold water risks damaging the plants All the plants have to be protected by is ice cold water or warmer water, or an insulating layer of ice that could be colder at the outside than ice cold on the inside. Ice in the presence of liquid water will always be at or warming to the temperature of ice cold water or 0C, no matter how cold the environment becomes because of the latent heat of fusion of water that enables ice cold water to remain at 0C. However ice cold water has less ability to provide a heat source than the slightly warmer unfrozen water had prior to freezing. Therefore, once ice begins forming on the plants, the environment immediately next to that ice must be colder than prior to ice formation
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 2, 2013 12:36:48 GMT
Andrew: You are wrong. Come on over. After you thump me you can help with spud harvest.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 13:02:19 GMT
Andrew: You are wrong. Come on over. After you thump me you can help with spud harvest. Instead of telling me i am wrong and only telling me what you have already told me before why not discuss your reasoning with me? You said you were concerned you might be wrong and wanted to discuss the topic I dont see any evidence of you discussing your beliefs here. For example why do you think i am wrong? If you answer involves telling me that i dont understand that latent heat of fusion is involved in the process of saving the plants i will have to thump you and you will get the spud harvest done on the cheap but you will have no idea why you are wrong.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 2, 2013 13:19:10 GMT
:Dang....here I was hoping for more help... "If you answer involves telling me that i dont understand that latent heat of fusion is involved in the process of saving the plants". This is what I have been trying to tell you all along, that it IS involved in the saving of the plants. As I said, it is semantics that has driven this discussion. You agree with me. OH well, going to have to look elsewhere for help now. I was ready for you to fill out a W-4....
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 13:39:07 GMT
:Dang....here I was hoping for more help... "If you answer involves telling me that i dont understand that latent heat of fusion is involved in the process of saving the plants". This is what I have been trying to tell you all along, that it IS involved in the saving of the plants. As I said, it is semantics that has driven this discussion. You agree with me. OH well, going to have to look elsewhere for help now. I was ready for you to fill out a W-4.... You are agreeing with Icefisher that freezing causes the arctic to become warmer when water freezes. I have said that is a stupid idea. So how can we possibly be having a problem over semantics only???
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Post by numerouno on Sept 2, 2013 13:54:05 GMT
"This is what I have been trying to tell you all along, that it IS involved in the saving of the plants." As long as there is liquid water around the fields, the heat will only come from the water that is being sprayed. The latent heat is safely latent inside that liquid water. None of it is being spent before the freezing. At the point you are using the phase change energy, you have in fact pretty much lost the game already as at least some parts of your plants have been frozen up! After icing up to a point of encrusting the plants (if any), the ice will to some extent protect the plants by acting as a heat insulation, but it will also make the situation worse as it will also protect the plants from recovering during the subsequent warming in the morning. Any evaporation of water will also only serve to make the situation worse. As I said, farmers over here do not use water spraying. They use insulating blankets as they will work. How-to is here: oppiminen.yle.fi/harrastukset/puutarhanhoito/kasvien-suojaus-kylmyydeltawww.taimituotanto.net
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 14:36:49 GMT
"This is what I have been trying to tell you all along, that it IS involved in the saving of the plants." As long as there is liquid water around the fields, the heat will only come from the water that is being sprayed. The latent heat is safely latent inside that liquid water. None of it is being spent before the freezing. At the point you are using the phase change energy, you have in fact pretty much lost the game already as at least some parts of your plants have been frozen up! After icing up to a point of encrusting the plants (if any), the ice will to some extent protect the plants by acting as a heat insulation, but it will also make the situation worse as it will also protect the plants from recovering during the subsequent warming in the morning. Any evaporation of water will also only serve to make the situation worse. As I said, farmers over here do not use water spraying. They use insulating blankets as they will work. How-to is here: oppiminen.yle.fi/harrastukset/puutarhanhoito/kasvien-suojaus-kylmyydeltawww.taimituotanto.netNumerouno you are mistaken on two points it appears to me. 1. Finnish growers are using spraying as described in the link provided by Icefisher. You will need to provide evidence you know better than the writers of that link please. 2 when ice forms it prevents the temperature from falling below 0C for as long as liquid water is able to continually reheat the ice to be the temperature of what is effectively an ice bath at 0C where other than momentary falls below 0C liquid water on top of ice will always prevent the plant from experiencing a sub zero temperature regardless of how cold the environment becomes - with the proviso this is true providing liquid water can always be sprayed upon ice other than momentary periods when liquid water freezes. With such an arrangement is it impossible to freeze the plant below 0C providing liquid water exists as a film on whatever ice amount is building
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Post by numerouno on Sept 2, 2013 14:57:07 GMT
1. Finnish growers are using spraying as described in the link provided by Icefisher. You will need to provide evidence you know better than the writers of that link please.
Ok, they are using it you say. Where is YOUR link?
Let me help you with some Finnish keywords:
Hallalta suojaaminen Hallasuojaus Hallaharso
when ice forms it prevents the temperature from falling below 0C for as long as liquid water is able to continually reheat the ice
Which I in fact just said above, please read it from there. The heat comes from the water that is being constantly pumped onto the fields, I've said a hundred of times already. Be iced up -- you've lost.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 15:58:56 GMT
1. Finnish growers are using spraying as described in the link provided by Icefisher. You will need to provide evidence you know better than the writers of that link please.Ok, they are using it you say. Where is YOUR link? Let me help you with some Finnish keywords: Hallalta suojaaminen Hallasuojaus Hallaharso when ice forms it prevents the temperature from falling below 0C for as long as liquid water is able to continually reheat the iceWhich I in fact just said above, please read it from there. The heat comes from the water that is being constantly pumped onto the fields, I've said a hundred of times already. Be iced up -- you've lost. I agree that i cannot find any links in Finnish to support the link provided by Icefisher. but....... when ice cold water arrives on the plant or is on the plant it still takes considerable cooling power to reduce the temperature of that water to the point the surface can be sub zero, and that is because of the latent heat of fusion of ice. You are saying that ice formation means you are lost and that is not correct, because unless it is super cold the water will always transit thru a stage of creating an ice bath prior to it being solid ice. It is the transit stage that is important and you are apparently not recognising it at all. In transit, ice and water exist together from the original water that arrived at the plant. Ie water arrives, it gets cooled, ice begins forming, and then you are lost if no more water can arrive before the inside of the ice layer is below freezing
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Post by icefisher on Sept 2, 2013 16:16:44 GMT
Oh oh!!!! dissention in the ranks!!!! And over heat rising out of water to maintain the temperature!
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 16:32:17 GMT
Oh oh!!!! dissention in the ranks!!!! And over heat rising out of water to maintain the temperature! Dream on We are not even thinking about heat rising out of the water
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Post by icefisher on Sept 2, 2013 17:03:45 GMT
Oh oh!!!! dissention in the ranks!!!! And over heat rising out of water to maintain the temperature! Dream on We are not even thinking about heat rising out of the water Heat is always moving from warm to cold Iceskater. So when the air is colder than the water heat is rising into the air. The heat of fusion heat is released into sensitive heat and flows to a colder object or radiates to space. Either way its up and if its up heat is rising. Its a basic law of physics! Study your physics, heat is always moving from warm to cold. So you are claiming the air temperature is not colder? Or that it is colder and heat does not flow from warm to cold? Please explain!
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Post by Andrew on Sept 2, 2013 17:10:22 GMT
Dream on We are not even thinking about heat rising out of the water Heat is always moving from warm to cold Iceskater. So when the air is colder than the water heat is rising into the air. The heat of fusion heat is released into sensitive heat and flows to a colder object or radiates to space. Either way its up and if its up heat is rising. Its a basic law of physics! Study your physics, heat is always moving from warm to cold. So you are claiming the air temperature is not colder? Or that it is colder and heat does not flow from warm to cold? Please explain! You said that freezing causes the cold atmosphere to rise in temperature. The reality is that less heating of the atmosphere occurs when freezing begins.
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