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Post by Andrew on Jan 17, 2014 2:13:23 GMT
If you had said that heat spikes are caused in the atmosphere by the change of leads opening up where ice cold water heats the atmosphere, more than the ice covered surface could do and said something about latent heat delaying the total freezing over of the lead we would not be having the difficult conversation we are having. Instead you said that only the change to freezing was causing a heat spike and mentioned no other changes. Thats total BS. I referred to the NSIDC polynya site! nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/polynyas.htmlYou said the site was full of it. Now you have flipflopped Sigh Obviously I have not flip flopped on anything at all in the tiniest amount imaginable. The NSIDC and farmers articles were obviously muddled up. Here is the evidence you are the devious flip flopper who has spent 6 months resisting high school physics realities. Mr Icefisher is saying that if I take a bucket water at 0.01C inside the house and cool it down just a little bit, then a bang, and there will emanate a puff of warm air from the bucket, that I can heat up my house with. Whoever wrote that at the NSIDC had simply it wrong. The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat. I welcome those lab test results showing that it does. I'm not expecting any, as all phase change energies are invisible to the thermometer. Before the water could freeze, we must remove thermal energy from it. Having reached 0C when cooling the water, we must also further remove the latent energy that was bound to the water when is was melted, should we want any actual ice to form. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy METEOROLOGIST JEFF HABY When the water was freezing latent heat of freezing energy was being released. Heat energy was actually being released. It is this heat energy that prevented the temperature from continuing to cool once the temperature reached 32 F. The way to think of this is that the heat energy does not warm the temperature but rather stops the cooling. The cooling that would have occurred is perfectly offset by the latent heat energy release and thus the temperature remains constant. When a latent heat process occurs the temperature remains constant. Energy is being transferred even through the temperature is constant. This is what you were saying 6 months ago: Your meteorologist is talking about how the temperature of the ice/water does not change as its freezing ("Actually, when water freezes it stays at a constant temperature."). DMI measures the temperature of the air where the latent heat is released to. Nowhere in the article does your meteorologist talk about the effect on the air or where the heat goes. NSIDC does explicitly talk about the destination of the heat and its effect. The latent heat exits the water/ice at that transition point but the exit of the latent heat does not change the temperature of the water/ice. However, it does change the temperature of the air. The scientists at NSIDC have it correct Phase change does not release or capture any external energy that could be measured. This is the latency in "latent heat". You are mixing it up with the expansion/contraction of gases. Expanding water vapour will carry away energy which we will observe as cooling at the source, and condensing will concentrate vapour heat back into one place. Not only does Sigurdur and myself disagree with you so does the Univ of Florida that says: "Why Microsprinklers Provide Cold Protection Wh en temperatures drop below freezing, the latent heat of fusion is released when the water freezes. Depending on the amount of ice that forms, the heat released can raise temperatures in the lower part of the canopy." Time and time again it has been explained to you that the latent heat cannot be released from the water other than the mass of water takes much longer to freeze and remains at 0C during that considerably longer time, where of course 0C water is capable of heating something colder. Evidently you have flip flopped and it is little wonder that I have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you began believing freezing created an energy burst that could heat air more than 0C water could do. 6 months ago all you had to do was agree with Numerouno that there would be no bang at the freezing point and no puff of warm air would be created so we all had common ground to understand what you were talking about. Instead you linked to the stupid NSIDC article to say Numerouno 'had it wrong' and then persisted by linking to misleading and downright ignorantly written farmers claims of heat spikes when water froze. >>I referred to the NSIDC polynya site! nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/polynyas.html This link contains more NSIDC stupidity: "Some sensible-heat exchange also occurs within latent-heat polynyas because the water in the polynya is generally warmer than the air above it even though the water is at freezing temperature" How can it be that the NSIDC is consistantly unable to correctly understand or describe the physics of latent heat of freezing of water!! ? Walt Meiers excuse is he has a background in Aeronautics, but how can it be the whole damn organisation does not understand the physics of water freezing??
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Post by sigurdur on Jan 18, 2014 14:00:31 GMT
Ya know, the discussion about latent heat via phase change should have been informative. There is a huge amount of energy released when this happens. Why this is so hard to understand baffles me. It is grade school physics.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 18, 2014 15:42:37 GMT
Ya know, the discussion about latent heat via phase change should have been informative. There is a huge amount of energy released when this happens. Why this is so hard to understand baffles me. It is grade school physics. You were given the information 6 months ago that latent heat keeps cold water at 0C while water freezes but it has no way of creating a heat spike to raise temperatures when water freezes unless it involves supercooling. What is the problem?
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Post by icefisher on Jan 18, 2014 19:32:38 GMT
Ya know, the discussion about latent heat via phase change should have been informative. There is a huge amount of energy released when this happens. Why this is so hard to understand baffles me. It is grade school physics. You were given the information 6 months ago that latent heat keeps cold water at 0C while water freezes but it has no way of creating a heat spike to raise temperatures when water freezes unless it involves supercooling. What is the problem? Why do you remain so committed as to not acknowledge that while latent heat keeps the "cold water at 0C while water freezes but it has no way of creating a heat spike to raise temperatures when water freezes unless it involves supercooling"; this thread has never ever been about the temperature of the water? The DMI data chart that shows heat spikes is "atmosphere temperature" not "water/ice temperature" and 0 deg water will and does warm near surface airs below 0 degrees and if you warm that air. . . . that is the very definition of a heat spike! You obviously retreat to talking about the temperature of the water because you have no argument to support Numeruno's notion that latent heat is never released to become sensible heat capable of heating something else. You post as much nonsense as you like from Numerouno but just because Numerouno thinks it to be so doesn't make it so. . . . like ice disappearing in the Arctic by 2013. Numeruno: "Phase change does not release or capture any external energy that could be measured. This is the latency in "latent heat"."
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Post by Andrew on Jan 18, 2014 20:25:49 GMT
Newsflash!!!
I just spent six months talking to you about your stupid ideas that water freezing could cause reversals in the cooling air of the arctic polar night inside 80 degrees where nobody can possibly believe if the oceans cool and freeze the air will become warmer.
I also spent six months listening to you and you idiot friends tell me latent heat was released into the air around plants to create temperature rises during freezing.
Worst of all even after I wrote to mr the ice will be all gone by 2013, serreze, who was insanely talking about freezing creating heating, you had the stupidity to tell me I was the confused one.
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Post by icefisher on Jan 19, 2014 1:47:52 GMT
Sigh Obviously I have not flip flopped on anything at all in the tiniest amount imaginable. The NSIDC and farmers articles were obviously muddled up. Here is the evidence you are the devious flip flopper who has spent 6 months resisting high school physics realities. Mr Icefisher is saying that if I take a bucket water at 0.01C inside the house and cool it down just a little bit, then a bang, and there will emanate a puff of warm air from the bucket, that I can heat up my house with. Whoever wrote that at the NSIDC had simply it wrong. The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat. I welcome those lab test results showing that it does. I'm not expecting any, as all phase change energies are invisible to the thermometer. Before the water could freeze, we must remove thermal energy from it. Having reached 0C when cooling the water, we must also further remove the latent energy that was bound to the water when is was melted, should we want any actual ice to form. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy METEOROLOGIST JEFF HABY When the water was freezing latent heat of freezing energy was being released. Heat energy was actually being released. It is this heat energy that prevented the temperature from continuing to cool once the temperature reached 32 F. The way to think of this is that the heat energy does not warm the temperature but rather stops the cooling. The cooling that would have occurred is perfectly offset by the latent heat energy release and thus the temperature remains constant. When a latent heat process occurs the temperature remains constant. Energy is being transferred even through the temperature is constant. This is what you were saying 6 months ago: Your meteorologist is talking about how the temperature of the ice/water does not change as its freezing ("Actually, when water freezes it stays at a constant temperature."). DMI measures the temperature of the air where the latent heat is released to. Nowhere in the article does your meteorologist talk about the effect on the air or where the heat goes. NSIDC does explicitly talk about the destination of the heat and its effect. The latent heat exits the water/ice at that transition point but the exit of the latent heat does not change the temperature of the water/ice. However, it does change the temperature of the air. The scientists at NSIDC have it correct Phase change does not release or capture any external energy that could be measured. This is the latency in "latent heat". You are mixing it up with the expansion/contraction of gases. Expanding water vapour will carry away energy which we will observe as cooling at the source, and condensing will concentrate vapour heat back into one place. Not only does Sigurdur and myself disagree with you so does the Univ of Florida that says: "Why Microsprinklers Provide Cold Protection Wh en temperatures drop below freezing, the latent heat of fusion is released when the water freezes. Depending on the amount of ice that forms, the heat released can raise temperatures in the lower part of the canopy." Time and time again it has been explained to you that the latent heat cannot be released from the water other than the mass of water takes much longer to freeze and remains at 0C during that considerably longer time, where of course 0C water is capable of heating something colder. Evidently you have flip flopped and it is little wonder that I have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you began believing freezing created an energy burst that could heat air more than 0C water could do. 6 months ago all you had to do was agree with Numerouno that there would be no bang at the freezing point and no puff of warm air would be created so we all had common ground to understand what you were talking about. Instead you linked to the stupid NSIDC article to say Numerouno 'had it wrong' and then persisted by linking to misleading and downright ignorantly written farmers claims of heat spikes when water froze. >>I referred to the NSIDC polynya site! nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/polynyas.html This link contains more NSIDC stupidity: "Some sensible-heat exchange also occurs within latent-heat polynyas because the water in the polynya is generally warmer than the air above it even though the water is at freezing temperature" How can it be that the NSIDC is consistantly unable to correctly understand or describe the physics of latent heat of freezing of water!! ? Walt Meiers excuse is he has a background in Aeronautics, but how can it be the whole damn organisation does not understand the physics of water freezing?? Well as recently in the past week you have continued maintain that Numerouno was completely right going so far as to claim he had been completely vindicated: That means you must be continuing to support Numerouno's statements: "The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat.""There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy."the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)These remain the most disagreeable points of contention. If you reject them, fine then we can move on to perhaps other points. But there is no point in doing that as long as it is not clear if you believe freezing water spontaneously releases heat into the environment or not.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 19, 2014 3:43:04 GMT
Sigh Obviously I have not flip flopped on anything at all in the tiniest amount imaginable. The NSIDC and farmers articles were obviously muddled up. Here is the evidence you are the devious flip flopper who has spent 6 months resisting high school physics realities. This is what you were saying 6 months ago: Time and time again it has been explained to you that the latent heat cannot be released from the water other than the mass of water takes much longer to freeze and remains at 0C during that considerably longer time, where of course 0C water is capable of heating something colder. Evidently you have flip flopped and it is little wonder that I have no idea what you are talking about. Obviously you began believing freezing created an energy burst that could heat air more than 0C water could do. 6 months ago all you had to do was agree with Numerouno that there would be no bang at the freezing point and no puff of warm air would be created so we all had common ground to understand what you were talking about. Instead you linked to the stupid NSIDC article to say Numerouno 'had it wrong' and then persisted by linking to misleading and downright ignorantly written farmers claims of heat spikes when water froze. >>I referred to the NSIDC polynya site! nsidc.org/cryosphere/seaice/characteristics/polynyas.html This link contains more NSIDC stupidity: "Some sensible-heat exchange also occurs within latent-heat polynyas because the water in the polynya is generally warmer than the air above it even though the water is at freezing temperature" How can it be that the NSIDC is consistantly unable to correctly understand or describe the physics of latent heat of freezing of water!! ? Walt Meiers excuse is he has a background in Aeronautics, but how can it be the whole damn organisation does not understand the physics of water freezing?? Well as recently in the past week you have continued maintain that Numerouno was completely right going so far as to claim he had been completely vindicated: That means you must be continuing to support Numerouno's statements: "The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat.""There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy."the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)These remain the most disagreeable points of contention. If you reject them, fine then we can move on to perhaps other points. But there is no point in doing that as long as it is not clear if you believe freezing water spontaneously releases heat into the environment or not. So on the 22nd of August Numerouno wrote this: "Mr Icefisher is saying that if I take a bucket water at 0.01C inside the house and cool it down just a little bit, then a bang, and there will emanate a puff of warm air from the bucket, that I can heat up my house with. Of course no such thing will happen, the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)" Which is ambiguous. You then produced the NSIDC article claiming the atmosphere warms when water freezes However on Aug 23, 2013 Numerouno wrote clearly and unambigously on the impact of water freezing. "Whoever wrote that at the NSIDC had simply it wrong. The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat. I welcome those lab test results showing that it does. I'm not expecting any, as all phase change energies are invisible to the thermometer. Before the water could freeze, we must remove thermal energy from it. Having reached 0C when cooling the water, we must also further remove the latent energy that was bound to the water when is was melted, should we want any actual ice to form. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy" " In the same freeking post he quoted Haby who said release of energy was better understood as the temperature not becoming lower while the water was freezing. The way to think of this is that the heat energy does not warm the temperature but rather stops the cooling. The cooling that would have occurred is perfectly offset by the latent heat energy release and thus the temperature remains constant.You though persisted with the NSIDC bursts of energy thinking that latent heat energy escaped the ice cold water to warm the atmosphere during freezing, rather than agreeing there was only a lengthened sensible heat heating capability from the icey water. You countered that Haby agreed with the bursts of energy thinking. Numerouno countered that condensation could not warm the atmosphere. Nonentropic has laboured that phase change can only buffer temperature, and i have said that condensation and wet lapse rate heating are occuring in a cooling environment, where the environment is kept warmer than otherwise, rather than as spontaneous bomb like releases of warming energy at the phase change. I pointed out that many meterology texts are muddled up on the meaning of latent heat and what it can do. You had countless opportunities to agree NSIDC were muddled up or ambiguous but all you did was support their confusing article with silly attacks upon me, and later that morphed into attacking the emails sent to me by NSIDC because you said the article text did not support global warming! What is more you just told me you are celibrating the NSIDC polynya article which i told you contained shit for brains thinking about latent heat fluxes, whereas it should be totally clear only a buffered or lengthened heating is possible via a sensible heat flux. What Numerouno was talking about should have been sufficiently clear for anybody. No spontaneous release of energy is possible from water during freezing, no Nautonnier heat rays, other than the buffered or lengthened sensible heat release that occurs as the water continues to release sensible heat. No heat spikes or puffs of warm air are possible due to water freezing. No videos of such a thing will ever be made. Nobody in Finland heats their house by freezing water. No bursts of energy in the atmosphere. Buckets of water do not produce puffs of warm air with a bang as they freeze. At the end of the day you spent 6 months arguing with me you were correct - when obviously i would have not been telling you that you had shit for brains responses for no reason at all. spon·ta·ne·ous (spn-tn-s) adj. 1. Happening or arising without apparent external cause; self-generated. 2. Arising from a natural inclination or impulse and not from external incitement or constraint. The release of latent heat happens as water is cooled or water cools. Water cannot cool however unless the external temperature is less than that of water. So water cooling must always be caused by the heat source of the surroundings being less than it was previously and therefore water is not cooling only because of some internal process that releases heat regardless of an external cause. If water could spontaneously cool it could cool to below the surrounding temperature or produce a burst of self heating internal energy. Either way whatever the meaning of spontaneous the context is totally clear. Buffered temperature changes only are possible at the freezing point of water unless there is a coincidental change happening around the same time as freezing.
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Post by icefisher on Jan 19, 2014 5:17:31 GMT
Well as recently in the past week you have continued maintain that Numerouno was completely right going so far as to claim he had been completely vindicated: That means you must be continuing to support Numerouno's statements: "The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat.""There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy."the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)These remain the most disagreeable points of contention. If you reject them, fine then we can move on to perhaps other points. But there is no point in doing that as long as it is not clear if you believe freezing water spontaneously releases heat into the environment or not. In a single post, which you idiotically just quoted, Numerouno said this which should be sufficiently clear even for a complete f**kwit. "Whoever wrote that at the NSIDC had simply it wrong. The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat. I welcome those lab test results showing that it does. I'm not expecting any, as all phase change energies are invisible to the thermometer. You are being very clear, you still believe that freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat! We can definitely argue about this!!!! Before the water could freeze, we must remove thermal energy from it. Having reached 0C when cooling the water, we must also further remove the latent energy that was bound to the water when is was melted, should we want any actual ice to form. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy" " The conclusion here by Numeruno is also unequivocal, there is zero release of energy by ice as a result of freezing and releasing latent heat! That sounds strange but I think we will find what Numeruno means by that in another statement of his. In the same freeking post he quoted Haby who said release of energy was better understood as the temperature not becoming lower while the water was freezing. The way to think of this is that the heat energy does not warm the temperature but rather stops the cooling. The cooling that would have occurred is perfectly offset by the latent heat energy release and thus the temperature remains constant.There never was any dispute on this issue. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. Oh here it is in the above sentence. He says the energy removal is entirely "internal to the ice"And lets us not forget he even told us how it removes the latent heat internally. "the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)"Are you really supporting this nonsense? You though persisted with the NSIDC bursts of energy thinking that latent heat energy escaped the ice cold water to warm the atmosphere during freezing, rather than agreeing there was only a lengthened sensible heat heating capability from the icey water Now you resort to desperate tactics. One minute you agree with Numeruno that the release of latent heat is entirely internal and the next minute you are saying it is released as sensible heat to the environment. It can't be entirely internal and external too. So not being able to defend that you are going to try to put words in my mouth to try to justify your insane position of defending Numerouno. (or as we will see later you will try stuffing words in Numeruno's mouth to make his position more palatable) But your problem is I never claimed that the external release of sensible heat was not simply lengthened (except in the case of supercooled liquids). Perhaps that is what you believe I was claiming but you have it wrong and seem to have no evidence to support your case. Give me the quote you have an objection about! You had countless opportunities to agree NSIDC were muddled up or ambiguous but all you did was support their confusion/confusing article with shit for brains attacks upon me. Same problem here you never singled out a statement of NSIDCs you thought they were muddled up on. Is it you thought they were claiming that latent heat release was of a higher temperature than freezing? If so perhaps you can show me that statement of NSIDCs that led you to that conclusion. What is more you just told me you are celibrating the NSIDC polynya article which i told you contained shit for brains thinking about latent heat fluxes, whereas it should be totally clear only a buffered or lengthened heating is possible via a sensible heat flux. I thought NSIDC's paper was clear. They may not have specified the external release of latent heat to the environment as sensible heat in accordance with the various radiation, conduction, and convection rate based upon the difference in temperature of the surface and the atmosphere but I did not see anything that suggested otherwise. Also while I am not going to look for it (unless of course you find something confusing I did say which is a distinct possibility) I distinctly recall myself saying back in August that of course latent heat is not released as heat above freezing because if it did it would first stop the freezing. That should have made it twice clear as to where I stood. First time clear should be I never made any statement claiming super fast heating in the first place(except with supercooled liquids). I will allow the lack of evidence on your part in support of the claim I made any such statement of super heating to stand as my sole evidence unless you find something to the contrary. If you do of course then I will seek out the above statement of the freezing process heat release rate being regulated by the freezing process itself. An idiot should have known where I stood at that point in time. What Numberouno was talking about should have been sufficiently clear for anybody. No spontaneous release of energy is possible from water during freezing other than the buffered or lengthened sensible heat release that occurs as the water continues to release sensible heat. Ah wouldn't life be easy if he had actually said that? Here being unable to support stuffing words in my mouth to make my position less palatable, here you try the tactic of putting words in Numeruno's mouth to make his position more palatable. Since all this word stuffing appears to have the intent of you adopting my position, I guess this is where I claim I taught you something and you simply do not want to recognize it.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 19, 2014 5:34:58 GMT
In a single post, which you idiotically just quoted, Numerouno said this which should be sufficiently clear even for a complete f**kwit. "Whoever wrote that at the NSIDC had simply it wrong. The freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat. I welcome those lab test results showing that it does. I'm not expecting any, as all phase change energies are invisible to the thermometer. You are being very clear, you still believe that freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat! We can definitely argue about this!!!! Before the water could freeze, we must remove thermal energy from it. Having reached 0C when cooling the water, we must also further remove the latent energy that was bound to the water when is was melted, should we want any actual ice to form. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. There is, in conclusion, only an "additional" requirement to cool down the ice due to the phase change requirements, that could be falsely understood as a release of energy" " The conclusion here by Numeruno is also unequivocal, there is zero release of energy by ice as a result of freezing and releasing latent heat! That sounds strange but I think we will find what Numeruno means by that in another statement of his. In the same freeking post he quoted Haby who said release of energy was better understood as the temperature not becoming lower while the water was freezing. The way to think of this is that the heat energy does not warm the temperature but rather stops the cooling. The cooling that would have occurred is perfectly offset by the latent heat energy release and thus the temperature remains constant.There never was any dispute on this issue. This energy removal will not be visible to any real-life instrument as it is internal to the ice. Oh here it is in the above sentence. He says the energy removal is entirely "internal to the ice"And lets us not forget he even told us how it removes the latent heat internally. "the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)"Are you really supporting this nonsense? You though persisted with the NSIDC bursts of energy thinking that latent heat energy escaped the ice cold water to warm the atmosphere during freezing, rather than agreeing there was only a lengthened sensible heat heating capability from the icey water Now you resort to desperate tactics. One minute you agree with Numeruno that the release of latent heat is entirely internal and the next minute you are saying it is released as sensible heat to the environment. It can't be entirely internal and external too. So not being able to defend that you are going to try to put words in my mouth to try to justify your insane position of defending Numerouno. (or as we will see later you will try stuffing words in Numeruno's mouth to make his position more palatable) But your problem is I never claimed that the external release of sensible heat was not simply lengthened (except in the case of supercooled liquids). Perhaps that is what you believe I was claiming but you have it wrong and seem to have no evidence to support your case. Give me the quote you have an objection about! You had countless opportunities to agree NSIDC were muddled up or ambiguous but all you did was support their confusion/confusing article with shit for brains attacks upon me. Same problem here you never singled out a statement of NSIDCs you thought they were muddled up on. Is it you thought they were claiming that latent heat release was of a higher temperature than freezing? If so perhaps you can show me that statement of NSIDCs that led you to that conclusion. What is more you just told me you are celibrating the NSIDC polynya article which i told you contained shit for brains thinking about latent heat fluxes, whereas it should be totally clear only a buffered or lengthened heating is possible via a sensible heat flux. I thought NSIDC's paper was clear. They may not have specified the external release of latent heat to the environment as sensible heat in accordance with the various radiation, conduction, and convection rate based upon the difference in temperature of the surface and the atmosphere but I did not see anything that suggested otherwise. Also while I am not going to look for it (unless of course you find something confusing I did say which is a distinct possibility) I distinctly recall myself saying back in August that of course latent heat is not released as heat above freezing because if it did it would first stop the freezing. That should have made it twice clear as to where I stood. First time clear should be I never made any statement claiming super fast heating in the first place(except with supercooled liquids). I will allow the lack of evidence on your part in support of the claim I made any such statement of super heating to stand as my sole evidence unless you find something to the contrary. If you do of course then I will seek out the above statement of the freezing process heat release rate being regulated by the freezing process itself. An idiot should have known where I stood at that point in time. What Numberouno was talking about should have been sufficiently clear for anybody. No spontaneous release of energy is possible from water during freezing other than the buffered or lengthened sensible heat release that occurs as the water continues to release sensible heat. Ah wouldn't life be easy if he had actually said that? Spontaneous means without external cause. As in spontaneous combustion. What is the difference between 1. Heat is released by a hot iron? 2. Heat is released spontaneously by a hot iron? Spontaneous means without external cause. No heat can be released spontaneously from hot iron unless the surroundings are colder than the iron. No heat can be released spontaneously when you cool a bucket of water, all of the heat released is released because you are cooling the bucket which is the external cause of the heat release. Anyway the meaning of Numerouno was totally clear. If you cool water it does not spontaneously go bang and release a puff of warm air upon freezing, instead the temperature fall is delayed while the water freezes. You quoted Haby to say that freezing could warm the air as could condensation. Numerouno pointed out that was wrong. Obviously you started f**king around with supercooling to try and save face. Only two days ago you were still claiming that freezing warmed the atmosphere rather than recognising heating required a change other than freezing to cause a heat spike The NSIDC article was confused. It clearly says in one part that the high temperatures were created by water freezing when it should have made clear the high temperatures were created by a warm ocean that needed to cool down before freezing could even begin and then latent heat played a part in the atmosphere being warmer, where obviously freezing cannot create a heat spike!! >>Also while I am not going to look for it (unless of course you find something confusing I did say which is a distinct possibility) I distinctly recall myself saying back in August that of course latent heat is not released as heat above freezing because if it did it would first stop the freezing. That was Numerouno. You had every chance to make your position different to my one and you never have done. For the record you have a multi year history of making unbelievably stupid claims which demonstrate you have a cretins understanding of science. Heat spikes in the atmosphere is just another in a long line of proven stupidity which you are still defending
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Post by icefisher on Jan 19, 2014 5:48:04 GMT
You are being very clear, you still believe that freezing water does not spontaneously release any heat! We can definitely argue about this!!!! The conclusion here by Numeruno is also unequivocal, there is zero release of energy by ice as a result of freezing and releasing latent heat! That sounds strange but I think we will find what Numeruno means by that in another statement of his. There never was any dispute on this issue. Oh here it is in the above sentence. He says the energy removal is entirely "internal to the ice"And lets us not forget he even told us how it removes the latent heat internally. "the phase change energy will go into changing the water into the crystal structure of ice, which will also expand a bit. (And by which way nature chops down northern rocks and mountains chip by chip.)"Are you really supporting this nonsense? Now you resort to desperate tactics. One minute you agree with Numeruno that the release of latent heat is entirely internal and the next minute you are saying it is released as sensible heat to the environment. It can't be entirely internal and external too. So not being able to defend that you are going to try to put words in my mouth to try to justify your insane position of defending Numerouno. (or as we will see later you will try stuffing words in Numeruno's mouth to make his position more palatable) But your problem is I never claimed that the external release of sensible heat was not simply lengthened (except in the case of supercooled liquids). Perhaps that is what you believe I was claiming but you have it wrong and seem to have no evidence to support your case. Give me the quote you have an objection about! Same problem here you never singled out a statement of NSIDCs you thought they were muddled up on. Is it you thought they were claiming that latent heat release was of a higher temperature than freezing? If so perhaps you can show me that statement of NSIDCs that led you to that conclusion. I thought NSIDC's paper was clear. They may not have specified the external release of latent heat to the environment as sensible heat in accordance with the various radiation, conduction, and convection rate based upon the difference in temperature of the surface and the atmosphere but I did not see anything that suggested otherwise. Also while I am not going to look for it (unless of course you find something confusing I did say which is a distinct possibility) I distinctly recall myself saying back in August that of course latent heat is not released as heat above freezing because if it did it would first stop the freezing. That should have made it twice clear as to where I stood. First time clear should be I never made any statement claiming super fast heating in the first place(except with supercooled liquids). I will allow the lack of evidence on your part in support of the claim I made any such statement of super heating to stand as my sole evidence unless you find something to the contrary. If you do of course then I will seek out the above statement of the freezing process heat release rate being regulated by the freezing process itself. An idiot should have known where I stood at that point in time. Ah wouldn't life be easy if he had actually said that? Spontaneous means without external cause. As in spontaneous combustion. What is the difference between 1. Heat is released by a hot iron? 2. Heat is released spontaneously by a hot iron? Spontaneous means without external cause. No heat can be released spontaneously from hot iron unless the surroundings are colder than the iron. Anyway the meaning of Numerouno was totally clear. If you cool water it does not spontaneously go bang and release a puff of warm air upon freezing, instead the temperature fall is delayed while the water freezes. All you are doing is stuffing words in Numeruno's mouth. All external heat transfer is spontaneous according the dictionary of physics. Numerouno not only said there was NO spontaneous release of energy he said the release of energy was entirely internal to the water, implying NO external transfer of heat via latent heat. I am simply taking him at what he said all you are doing is wanting to take him as what you believe he believes, even you do not want to define that by what he actually said. You quoted Haby to say that freezing could warm the air as could condensation. Numerouno pointed out that was wrong. Indeed Haby had it right. Numeruno has it wrong. In each case, condensation and freezing, water/water vapor releases latent heat as sensible heat to the air (assuming of course that we are talking about water/water vapor being cooled by the air into a state change} Obviously you started f**king around with supercooling to try and save face. So me, Sigurdur, Nautonnier, NSIDC, NASA, Haby, and even the physics dictionary are all wrong and you and Numerouno are right?
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Post by Andrew on Jan 19, 2014 5:56:19 GMT
Spontaneous means without external cause. As in spontaneous combustion. What is the difference between 1. Heat is released by a hot iron? 2. Heat is released spontaneously by a hot iron? Spontaneous means without external cause. No heat can be released spontaneously from hot iron unless the surroundings are colder than the iron. Anyway the meaning of Numerouno was totally clear. If you cool water it does not spontaneously go bang and release a puff of warm air upon freezing, instead the temperature fall is delayed while the water freezes. All you are doing is stuffing words in Numeruno's mouth. All external heat transfer is spontaneous according the dictionary of physics. Numerouno not only said there was NO spontaneous release of energy he said the release of energy was entirely internal to the water, implying NO external transfer of heat via latent heat. I am simply taking him at what he said all you are doing is wanting to take him as what you believe he believes, even you do not want to define that by what he actually said. You quoted Haby to say that freezing could warm the air as could condensation. Numerouno pointed out that was wrong. Indeed Haby had it right. Numeruno has it wrong. In each case, condensation and freezing, water/water vapor releases latent heat as sensible heat to the air (assuming of course that we are talking about water/water vapor being cooled by the air into a state change} Obviously you started f**king around with supercooling to try and save face. So me, Sigurdur, Nautonnier, NSIDC, NASA, Haby, and even the physics dictionary are all wrong and you and Numerouno are right? Numerouno said the heat release was entirely internal to the water/ice and nothing was released that could be detected and since nothing could be released that could be detected it could not cause puffs of warm air when a bucket froze. He also made it totally clear to all but the cretins on this board that latent heat delayed the freezing of the entire bucket of water and additional energy had to be transferred out of the god damn mixture for that to happen due to the latent heat, where the transfer of that heat could be falsely understood as a release of heat capable of causing puffs of warming. Who gives a f**k if there a group of f**kwits on this board and elsewhere?? Science is not determined by consensus.
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Post by icefisher on Jan 19, 2014 6:31:26 GMT
Numerouno said the heat release was entirely internal to the water/ice and nothing was released that could be detected and since nothing could be released that could be detected it could not cause puffs of warm air when a bucket froze. He also made it totally clear to all but the cretins on this board that latent heat delayed the freezing of the entire bucket of water. Who gives a f**k if there a group of f**kwits on this board and elsewhere?? Science is not determined by consensus. If it releases nothing it would not warm the air in the room. If it releases heat into the room its going to either warm the room or replace heat that is being lost by the room, in either case its warming/heating the room something it cannot do without an external transfer of heat. But you flit back and forth between recognizing that its releasing heat without cooling (heat that is going somewhere) and its releasing nothing externally as Numerouno so clearly, unequivocally and originally claimed. Its fairly clear that under it all at least now you even are agreeing with us and the consensus physics position and all you are doing now is trying to rearrange who invented/learned it first.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 19, 2014 6:40:38 GMT
Numerouno said the heat release was entirely internal to the water/ice and nothing was released that could be detected and since nothing could be released that could be detected it could not cause puffs of warm air when a bucket froze. He also made it totally clear to all but the cretins on this board that latent heat delayed the freezing of the entire bucket of water. Who gives a f**k if there a group of f**kwits on this board and elsewhere?? Science is not determined by consensus. If it releases nothing it would not warm the air in the room. If it releases heat into the room its going to either warm the room or replace heat that is being lost by the room, in either case its warming/heating the room something it cannot do without an external transfer of heat. But you flit back and forth between recognizing that its releasing heat without cooling (heat that is going somewhere) and its releasing nothing externally as Numerouno so clearly, unequivocally and originally claimed. Its fairly clear that under it all at least now you even are agreeing with us and the consensus physics position and all you are doing now is trying to rearrange who invented/learned it first. No heat is spontaneously released when water freezes!! The release is caused by the atmosphere or space being cold! Unless the room is insulated the air will not warm up at the freezing point when in reality the cooling air is cooling the water! The cooling arctic polar night is cooling the atmosphere and the ocean!! The atmosphere is not in an insulated container so it cannot heat up when water freezes or when water gets colder unless another coincidental change happens where the heating would be stronger for warmer water! Latent heat is not released into the atmosphere. Nothing happens that can be detected so nothing can happen externally, while simultaneously it is totally clear to all but the most stupid fool in the universe that a delayed cooling of a mass of material is more able to heat the surroundings than a mass that cools instantaneously, where even so it must be clear to all but the most stupid fool in the universe that if you are cooling a bucket of water it cannot cause the cold part of your cooling system to get hotter just because at one point the cooling is delayed before cooling resumes, where it should be clear to even the most stupid fool in the entire universe that the cooling part of the cooling system is at best only buffered at the freezing point ie does not cool any more rather than heated at the freezing point. No spontaneous releases of heat at the freezing point of water!! No heat spikes in the atmosphere!! No heat spikes in Orchards either. Farmers are wrong etc etc etc. The NSIDC article is misleading. It needs clarification to avoid retards getting confused.
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Post by icefisher on Jan 19, 2014 6:54:29 GMT
If it releases nothing it would not warm the air in the room. If it releases heat into the room its going to either warm the room or replace heat that is being lost by the room, in either case its warming/heating the room something it cannot do without an external transfer of heat. But you flit back and forth between recognizing that its releasing heat without cooling (heat that is going somewhere) and its releasing nothing externally as Numerouno so clearly, unequivocally and originally claimed. Its fairly clear that under it all at least now you even are agreeing with us and the consensus physics position and all you are doing now is trying to rearrange who invented/learned it first. No heat is spontaneously released when water freezes!! The release is caused by the atmosphere or space being f**king cold! How does it cause it? Send a memo? Wiki: "In physics, heating is spontaneous transfer of energy from one body to another, other than by work or transfer of matter." So you are saying it sends a memo or some other form of matter or that it "works" to transfer the heat? Latent heat is not released into the atmosphere. Nothing happens that can be detected so nothing can happen externally, while simultaneously it is totally clear to all but the most stupid cun.t in the universe that a delayed cooling of a mass of material is more able to heat the surroundings than a mass that cools instantaneously, where even so it must be clear to all but the most stupid cun.t in the universe that if you are cooling a f**king bucket of water it cannot cause the cold part of your cooling system to get hotter just because at one point the cooling is delayed before cooling resumes, where it should be clear to even the most stupid cun.t in the entire universe that the cooling part of the f**king cooling system is at best only buffered at the freezing point ie does not cool any more rather than heated at the freezing point. So it when the mass of material delays its cooling (stops spontaneously transferring its sensible heat) its able to heat its surroundings without releasing anything? No spontaneous release of energy at all? No spontaneous releases of heat at the freezing point of f**king water!! No f**king heat spikes in the f**king atmosphere!! Now it can't "heat its surroundings"? You just said in the previous paragraph "is more able to heat the surroundings than a mass that cools instantaneously". You need to pick one position and stop straddling positions just so you can justify your unjustified support of Numerouno! The NSIDC article was misleading. It needs clarification to avoid f**kwits getting confused. Some "f**kwits" will get confused no matter what!
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Post by Andrew on Jan 19, 2014 7:08:19 GMT
No heat is spontaneously released when water freezes!! The release is caused by the atmosphere or space being f**king cold! How does it cause it? Send a memo? Wiki: "In physics, heating is spontaneous transfer of energy from one body to another, other than by work or transfer of matter." So you are saying it sends a memo or some other form of matter or that it "works" to transfer the heat? Latent heat is not released into the atmosphere. Nothing happens that can be detected so nothing can happen externally, while simultaneously it is totally clear to all but the most stupid cun.t in the universe that a delayed cooling of a mass of material is more able to heat the surroundings than a mass that cools instantaneously, where even so it must be clear to all but the most stupid cun.t in the universe that if you are cooling a f**king bucket of water it cannot cause the cold part of your cooling system to get hotter just because at one point the cooling is delayed before cooling resumes, where it should be clear to even the most stupid cun.t in the entire universe that the cooling part of the f**king cooling system is at best only buffered at the freezing point ie does not cool any more rather than heated at the freezing point. So it when the mass of material delays its cooling (stops spontaneously transferring its sensible heat) its able to heat its surroundings without releasing anything? No spontaneous release of energy at all? No spontaneous releases of heat at the freezing point of f**king water!! No f**king heat spikes in the f**king atmosphere!! Now it can't "heat its surroundings"? You just said in the previous paragraph "is more able to heat the surroundings than a mass that cools instantaneously". You need to pick one position and stop straddling positions just so you can justify your unjustified support of Numerouno! The NSIDC article was misleading. It needs clarification to avoid f**kwits getting confused. Some "f**kwits" will get confused no matter what! Sigh I have never once claimed that hot things cannot heat cold things and you keep persisting for about 20 times to claim i have!!. You have to see the context of the reality we are talking about instead of the contents of your own mind where you appear fixated by something. The cooling polar arctic night is reducing the temperature of the air and the water. That is the reality. You dont have air in a insulated container above the insulated water so the air can have the temperature raised. Unless you place cold air in an insulated environment it will not warm up when water freezes or water cools. Instead the air will be heated by the surrounding environment or it will continue to get colder where less heat is produced by the water as it cools apart from when it is freezing when the same amount of heat passes to the air which must cool further if it were already getting colder when the water was hotter, unless some other change occurs where freezing is just a coincidence Obviously what i am saying is entirely sensible consistant and understandable. If you cannot understand that now after 50 times of explanation then so be it. There is no mechanism for heat spikes unless you rig your experiment to try and hoodwink people into thinking you are talking any sense whatsoever. The NSIDC article is muddled up. It clearly says at one point the freezing caused the unusual temperatures while also saying elsewhere it is the summer time heat transfer from the ocean that is causing the higher temperatures. Newsflash!! My name is not Numerouno!! You have been arguing with me for 6 months!! Endless stupid argumentation and you are still fixated on the same stupid points you were when this stupid conversation began. If only you had not spent 6 months praising Serreze and telling me how farmers warmed their groves with freezing water we could all have spent 6 months listening to your crazy ideas on how i was making up radiation heat transfer graphs without a shred of evidence! solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93510/thread
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