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Post by icefisher on Jan 21, 2014 8:50:01 GMT
Obviously that is not my argument and you know damn well it is not my argument. That is another of your idiot games. The water is being cooled and energy is passing to the colder environment. Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C. You know that. It has been endlessly explained to you already. You just like f**king around forever, where nothing can become concrete and agreed and instead your original stupidity can be made to seem to you like it was correct. Yes I think its obvious the release of latent heat in water is lost by the water by the water/ice being warmer than the atmosphere. One would not need to protect crops by freezing ice if the atmosphere was not colder than the ice. That should be more than obvious to you. However, with supercooling not all the heat is passed to the atmosphere. All freezing according to some scientists involves some degree of supercooling so some of that heat is retained by the ice as sensible heat. You scream at me but it is you playing word games and arguing fine and essentially irrelevant points when the only point ever being made is yes the heat of fusion is responsible for transferring sensible heat to the atmosphere and creating a heat spike. You say that: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C." Since that was always the point being made by me and disputed by Numerouno, this argument has come to an end. Spontaneous combustion. water has to be actively cooled to release energy in the same way a lump of iron has to be cooled to release energy. It cannot go bang and produce a release of energy while it freezes - unless it supercools first. Whatever your opinion about it Numerouno used the same meaning as the American Association for the Advancement of Science who evidently are taking an interest in the learning problems students have You really haven't clearly explained how spontaneous combustion differs physically from an object naturally cooling. To get spontaneous combustion you have to put some chemicals together that then creates a reaction from their interaction, heat builds slowly or quickly, and then when hot enough it flames. Seem essentially the same as putting a glass of water in a cold room, it cools, then it freezes. Both cases require interactions between two different things. . . .if not then everything would burn. This is a delusional comment of course. You were also talking about freezing warming up the groves! You have also consistantly attempted to ridicule me for writing to NSIDC. No I admired your gall for writing to NSIDC. I ridiculed the way your strut around after getting really nothing out of them. "As i have said repeatedly a heat spike requires a change in conditions that enables greater heating of the air, such as for example a sensible heat polynya or a change in wind direction, or a strengthening wind to create greater cooling of the ocean and ice to enable the air to become warmer. Freezing is not a change that creates greater heating" You still don't get it. "greater heating" does not have to be something of a higher temperature all it has to be is something that will transfer more total heat until equilibrium is reached or another change intervenes and stops the warming the atmosphere. With that very reasonable and real definition of greater heating, freezing qualifies. If you artificially define greater heating as only an increasing rate of heating then would you also claim that 0deg ice cannot warm -10C air under any circumstance(in an insulated container if that makes you feel better) because the rate of heating has been reduced? Obviously not. Thats precisely what I mean about the word games you have been playing.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2014 9:30:24 GMT
Obviously that is not my argument and you know damn well it is not my argument. That is another of your idiot games. The water is being cooled and energy is passing to the colder environment. Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C. You know that. It has been endlessly explained to you already. You just like f**king around forever, where nothing can become concrete and agreed and instead your original stupidity can be made to seem to you like it was correct. Yes I think its obvious the release of latent heat in water is lost by the water by the water/ice being warmer than the atmosphere. One would not need to protect crops by freezing ice if the atmosphere was not colder than the ice. That should be more than obvious to you. Reality check sonny jim! You were/are talking about freezing creating warming in the groves after you endlessly confront/ed numerouno telling you 'freezing did not spontaneously release heat and if puffs of warm air came from freezing why were we not heating our homes by freezing water' However, with supercooling not all the heat is passed to the atmosphere. All freezing according to some scientists involves some degree of supercooling so some of that heat is retained by the ice as sensible heat. You scream at me but it is you playing word games and arguing fine and essentially irrelevant points when the only point ever being made is yes the heat of fusion is responsible for transferring sensible heat to the atmosphere and creating a heat spike. There is no heat of fusion unless there is supercooling and supercooling is a total red herring. Supercooling in the arctic is not thought to be an important process. You are just playing games by even mentioning it for all of this length of time You say that: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C." Since that was always the point being made by me and disputed by Numerouno, this argument has come to an end. Numerouno repeatedly told you that because of the latency additional heat was transferred from the 0C mixture to enable freezing and this could be falsely interpreted as a release of energy. You had endless opportunities to agree with me but you persisted with the notion expressed by the others the freezing warmed the atmosphere and talked about the groves becoming warmer. You are still claiming a cooling atmosphere can become hotter when water freezes!!! Apperantly you dont like the idea that a mid ocean sensible heat polynya could be the cause. Your fantasised cause is impossible without another changeSpontaneous combustion. water has to be actively cooled to release energy in the same way a lump of iron has to be cooled to release energy. It cannot go bang and produce a release of energy while it freezes - unless it supercools first. Whatever your opinion about it Numerouno used the same meaning as the American Association for the Advancement of Science who evidently are taking an interest in the learning problems students have You really haven't clearly explained how spontaneous combustion differs physically from an object naturally cooling. To get spontaneous combustion you have to put some chemicals together that then creates a reaction from their interaction, heat builds slowly or quickly, and then when hot enough it flames. Seem essentially the same as putting a glass of water in a cold room, it cools, then it freezes. Both cases require interactions between two different things. . . .if not then everything would burn.
Sigh. Spontaneous means without external cause. Eg an old lady bursts into flames and there is no visible external reason why her body became so intensely hot. Was it spontaneous combustion or some other cause? water cannot become hotter or colder without some external cause. It is that simple. Take it up with the american scientists rather than me. This is a delusional comment of course. You were also talking about freezing warming up the groves! You have also consistantly attempted to ridicule me for writing to NSIDC. No I admired your gall for writing to NSIDC. I ridiculed the way your strut around after getting really nothing out of them. Bullshit. Meier wrote to me and Serreze to say the article was ambiguous, he said the summer time warmth that needed to cool was the reason for the warmth rather than the act of freezing. You have spent 6 months ridiculing me for me claiming with complete justification I got a result. "As i have said repeatedly a heat spike requires a change in conditions that enables greater heating of the air, such as for example a sensible heat polynya or a change in wind direction, or a strengthening wind to create greater cooling of the ocean and ice to enable the air to become warmer. Freezing is not a change that creates greater heating" You still don't get it. "greater heating" does not have to be something of a higher temperature all it has to be is something that will transfer more total heat until equilibrium is reached or another change intervenes and stops the warming the atmosphere. I get it all perfectly clearly. It is called a change that has nothing to do with freezing With that very reasonable and real definition of greater heating, freezing qualifies. Freezing is not a greater heating as you know!!! If you artificially define greater heating as only an increasing rate of heating then would you also claim that 0deg ice cannot warm -10C air under any circumstance(in an insulated container if that makes you feel better) because the rate of heating has been reduced? Obviously not. Thats precisely what I mean about the word games you have been playing. Total bullshit!!! You are still playing silly buggers. A change is required to cause the cooling atmosphere to become hotter and that change is not freezing Along with spontaneous you need to learn what equilibrium means >>You still don't get it. "greater heating" does not have to be something of a higher temperature all it has to be is something that will transfer more total heat until equilibrium is reached The change to freezing cannot transfer more heat!!! There needs to be another change! The atmosphere is becoming colder before the heat spike!!! A storm will for example create greater heating of the atmosphere
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Post by icefisher on Jan 21, 2014 9:42:07 GMT
Yes I think its obvious the release of latent heat in water is lost by the water by the water/ice being warmer than the atmosphere. One would not need to protect crops by freezing ice if the atmosphere was not colder than the ice. That should be more than obvious to you. Reality check sonny jim! You were/are talking about freezing creating warming in the groves after you endlessly confront/ed numerouno telling you 'freezing did not spontaneously release heat and if puffs of warm air came from freezing why were we not heating our homes by freezing water' However, with supercooling not all the heat is passed to the atmosphere. All freezing according to some scientists involves some degree of supercooling so some of that heat is retained by the ice as sensible heat. You scream at me but it is you playing word games and arguing fine and essentially irrelevant points when the only point ever being made is yes the heat of fusion is responsible for transferring sensible heat to the atmosphere and creating a heat spike. There is no heat of fusion unless there is supercooling and supercooling is a total red herring. Supercooling in the arctic is not thought to be an important process. You are just playing games by even mentioning it for all of this length of time You say that: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C." Since that was always the point being made by me and disputed by Numerouno, this argument has come to an end. Numerouno repeatedly told you that heat was transferred from the 0C mixture to enable freezing and this could be falsely interpreted as a release of energy. You had endless opportunities to agree with me but you persisted with the notion expressed by the others the freezing warmed the atmosphere and talked about the groves becoming warmer. You are still claiming a cooling atmosphere can become hotter when water freezes!!! You dont like the idea that a mid ocean sensible heat polynya could be the cause. Your fantasised cause is impossible without another changeYou really haven't clearly explained how spontaneous combustion differs physically from an object naturally cooling. To get spontaneous combustion you have to put some chemicals together that then creates a reaction from their interaction, heat builds slowly or quickly, and then when hot enough it flames. Seem essentially the same as putting a glass of water in a cold room, it cools, then it freezes. Both cases require interactions between two different things. . . .if not then everything would burn.
Sigh. Spontaneous means without external cause. Eg an old lady bursts into flames and there is no visible external reason why her body became so intensely hot. Was it spontaneous combustion or some other cause? water cannot become hotter or colder without some external cause. It is that simple. Take it up with the american scientists rather than me. No I admired your gall for writing to NSIDC. I ridiculed the way your strut around after getting really nothing out of them. Bullshit. Meier wrote to me and Serreze to say the article was ambiguous, he said the summer time warmth that needed to cool was the reason for the warmth rather than the act of freezing. You have spent 6 months ridiculing me for me claiming with complete justification I got a result. You still don't get it. "greater heating" does not have to be something of a higher temperature all it has to be is something that will transfer more total heat until equilibrium is reached or another change intervenes and stops the warming the atmosphere. I get it all perfectly clearly. It is called a change that has nothing to do with freezing With that very reasonable and real definition of greater heating, freezing qualifies. Freezing is not a greater heating as you know!!! If you artificially define greater heating as only an increasing rate of heating then would you also claim that 0deg ice cannot warm -10C air under any circumstance(in an insulated container if that makes you feel better) because the rate of heating has been reduced? Obviously not. Thats precisely what I mean about the word games you have been playing. Total bullshit!!! You are still playing silly buggers. A change is required to cause the cooling atmosphere to become hotter and that change is not freezing No problem Andrew. All I ever wanted you to admit to you admitted to here: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C." Everything else is extraneous! Were done here.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2014 9:53:38 GMT
No problem Andrew. All I ever wanted you to admit to you admitted to here: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C." Everything else is extraneous! Were done here. So why were you talking about warming in the groves? I am not admitting anything you dorkMy position is exactly the same as it was 6 months ago! The ice can only freeze either by radiating energy to a colder air layer or space or by warming the very cold air that blows across the water ice mixture. So yes the ice is releasing energy to the atmosphere and the ice is a source of heat which can warm the atmosphere,
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Post by icefisher on Jan 21, 2014 10:01:46 GMT
No problem Andrew. All I ever wanted you to admit to you admitted to here: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C." Everything else is extraneous! Were done here. So why were you talking about warming in the groves? Why when Numerouno clearly said that due to the latency additional heat had to be removed from the ice at 0C which could be falsely understood as a release of energy and said that it was better understood as a constant temperature rather than a release of energy did you earnestly declare 'no that is wrong freezing creates warmer air temperatures' Why When all my posts were crystal clear were me and numeroun like two peas in a pod? Why when numerouno humourously said in very clear terms he was waiting for the video evidence of puffs of warm air coming from a freezing bucket of water did you not say you were not expecting the air to warm up when the bucket was cooled to the freezing point? Why instead did you keep saying we were wrong? Why did i get no result from NSIDC? ?? Why have you persisted with the silly notion that freezing causes heat spikes in the arctic against all reasonable argumentation by me? ? Well I am perfectly satisfied if both you and Numeruno endorse: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C."I will recognize some speculation of additional heat arising from supercooling that was not offered as factual or necessary for the creation of warming in the arctic atmosphere. You raise some interesting conjecture about what Numeruno was claiming and what you were in fact supporting. I focused on the "internal" retention of latent heat claim by Numerouno and its employment in the expansion of ice. If you can link me to a comment by Numerouno that clearly states what you state above, I would be interested in seeing it.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 21, 2014 10:07:51 GMT
So why were you talking about warming in the groves? Why when Numerouno clearly said that due to the latency additional heat had to be removed from the ice at 0C which could be falsely understood as a release of energy and said that it was better understood as a constant temperature rather than a release of energy did you earnestly declare 'no that is wrong freezing creates warmer air temperatures' Why When all my posts were crystal clear were me and numeroun like two peas in a pod? Why when numerouno humourously said in very clear terms he was waiting for the video evidence of puffs of warm air coming from a freezing bucket of water did you not say you were not expecting the air to warm up when the bucket was cooled to the freezing point? Why instead did you keep saying we were wrong? Why did i get no result from NSIDC? ?? Why have you persisted with the silly notion that freezing causes heat spikes in the arctic against all reasonable argumentation by me? ? Well I am perfectly satisfied if both you and Numeruno endorse: "Once the ice is frozen solid all of the latent heat has been passed to the environment via sensible heating of an object releasing heat at 0C."I will recognize some speculation of additional heat arising from supercooling that was not offered as factual or necessary for the creation of warming in the arctic atmosphere. You raise some interesting conjecture about what Numeruno was claiming and what you were in fact supporting. I focused on the "internal" retention of latent heat claim by Numerouno and its employment in the expansion of ice. If you can link me to a comment by Numerouno that clearly states what you state above, I would be interested in seeing it. You and I have both been quoting the text by num that includes the haby text. solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93489 That is all you need to read to understand num totally agrees with me. You declared thats wrong the haby text says the freezing warms the atmosphere.......and on and on it f**king went without apparent end 6 months ago i said: The ice can only freeze either by radiating energy to a colder air layer or space or by warming the very cold air that blows across the water ice mixture. So yes the ice is releasing energy to the atmosphere and the ice is a source of heat which can warm the atmosphere, but the unfrozen water is also a source of heat that can warm the atmosphere and is actually a greater source of heat because it has a higher temperature. It is called the latent heat of fusion of water for a good reason. You cannot observe the release of heat because it is hidden. All that will be noticeable is that the freezing ice water mixture is a greater source of heat for the atmosphere than if the ice water mixture had fallen in temperature and had not had the latent heats ability to maintain the ice water at around -2C as it freezes. You replied that me and Num were like two peas in a pod Nonentropic was also clearly agreeing with me and num and yet on it went endlessly
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Post by karlox on Jan 21, 2014 19:00:11 GMT
Please, please, please one of you please win this so I know who is right. :Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0 For most convenient access Watch Code can be linked through video-link, Code.
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Post by sigurdur on Jan 21, 2014 19:01:42 GMT
Please, please, please one of you please win this so I know who is right. :Dhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgYEuJ5u1K0 Code: PERFECT.
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Post by karlox on Jan 21, 2014 19:06:28 GMT
Code, I think your video better depicts some Think Tank meeting seeking solutions for Spain
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Post by karlox on Jan 21, 2014 19:10:14 GMT
For setting the present conflict-dispute perhaps we should rather call the Spanish Inquisition?
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Post by Andrew on Jan 28, 2014 5:52:35 GMT
You have that wrong Nonum! When water freezes it "releases" latent heat, that means it takes latent heat not heating the air and releases it so it does heat the air. The heat is latent only when inside the water form. The DMI data is an average of 5x5 degree segments that are not weighted by their respective sizes. So DMI weights toward higher latitude. The declining sun angle in the top arctic is likely allowing the refreeze to begin and due to the weighting scheme we are seeing it show up in the data as more freeze over more melt. with basically flat temperature air being pumped into the Arctic for almost 17 years now it has little to do with variable airs entering the arctic. This central pack freeze will continue to increase and extend its zone southwardard.... the freeze up is underway and is moving southw The weather forecast for the southern route of the NW passage is for average freezing conditions tomorrow so cooling is going on as is indicated by the general direction of the DMI curve. Yeah baby! Flat temperature air coming into the arctic, declining sun angles, freezing conditions with cooling going on causes heat spikes in the arctic when water freezes! But...but....but.... Little wonder this conversation is never going to end. It just moves with the wind, moving for eternity without end.
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Post by icefisher on Jan 30, 2014 0:37:13 GMT
Yeah baby! Flat temperature air coming into the arctic, declining sun angles, freezing conditions with cooling going on causes heat spikes in the arctic when water freezes! But...but....but.... Little wonder this conversation is never going to end. It just moves with the wind, moving for eternity without end. Right and NSIDC with thousands of observations is all muddled up but you with zero observations knows its impossible.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 30, 2014 4:32:31 GMT
Yeah baby! Flat temperature air coming into the arctic, declining sun angles, freezing conditions with cooling going on causes heat spikes in the arctic when water freezes! But...but....but.... Little wonder this conversation is never going to end. It just moves with the wind, moving for eternity without end. Right and NSIDC with thousands of observations is all muddled up but you with zero observations knows its impossible. ? -------------------------------------------------------- The ice can only freeze either by radiating energy to a colder air layer or space or by warming the very cold air that blows across the water ice mixture. So yes the ice is releasing energy to the atmosphere and the ice is a source of heat which can warm the atmosphere, but the unfrozen water is also a source of heat that can warm the atmosphere and is actually a greater source of heat because it has a higher temperature.
there has been a lot of changing of goal posts in this thread.
False.
The objective is to provide an education about the meaning of latent heat, where:
1. ice cold water has no more heating ability per unit of time than unfrozen water of the same temperature
*and*
2. latent heat of fusion cannot raise the temperature of water unless water is supercooled below 0C.
*and*
3. Latent heat enables the heating ability available in 1. to be sustained from the warmth of 0C icey water for a longer period of time, without less heating ability becoming present, thru a fall in temperature, until freezing is completed
--------------------------------------------------- If the temperatures are falling the act of freezing water cannot create a heat spike. There is no mechanism. Zilch nada Zero. For some reason you have been playing the c.unt and f**king around with me for 7 months unable to agree on that simple reality.
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Post by icefisher on Jan 31, 2014 7:45:22 GMT
Right and NSIDC with thousands of observations is all muddled up but you with zero observations knows its impossible. ? -------------------------------------------------------- The ice can only freeze either by radiating energy to a colder air layer or space or by warming the very cold air that blows across the water ice mixture. So yes the ice is releasing energy to the atmosphere and the ice is a source of heat which can warm the atmosphere, but the unfrozen water is also a source of heat that can warm the atmosphere and is actually a greater source of heat because it has a higher temperature. The objective is to provide an education about the meaning of latent heat, where: 1. ice cold water has no more heating ability per unit of time than unfrozen water of the same temperature *and* 2. latent heat of fusion cannot raise the temperature of water unless water is supercooled below 0C. *and* 3. Latent heat enables the heating ability available in 1. to be sustained from the warmth of 0C icey water for a longer period of time, without less heating ability becoming present, thru a fall in temperature, until freezing is completed --------------------------------------------------- Myself, Sigurdur, Nautonnier, nor the NSIDC ever disputed this so this argument is a red herring. If the temperatures are falling the act of freezing water cannot create a heat spike. There is no mechanism. Zilch nada Zero. For some reason you have been playing the c.unt and f**king around with me for 7 months unable to agree on that simple reality. This is a moronic argument because it would only be true if the air were cooling faster than the freezing water can transfer heat to it. And since cooling air can be cooling at any rate above no cooling at all for all cases where the cooling were less than the heat being tranferred to the atmosphere the atmosphere will warm. Further this will be the case in virtually all instances where the surface is warmer than the atmosphere, which of course was the condition we have been talking about for 5 months.
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Post by Andrew on Jan 31, 2014 8:31:48 GMT
? -------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Myself, Sigurdur, Nautonnier, nor the NSIDC ever disputed this so this argument is a red herring. If the temperatures are falling the act of freezing water cannot create a heat spike. There is no mechanism. Zilch nada Zero. For some reason you have been playing the c.unt and f**king around with me for 7 months unable to agree on that simple reality. This is a moronic argument because it would only be true if the air were cooling faster than the freezing water can transfer heat to it. And since cooling air can be cooling at any rate above no cooling at all for all cases where the cooling were less than the heat being tranferred to the atmosphere the atmosphere will warm. Further this will be the case in virtually all instances where the surface is warmer than the atmosphere, which of course was the condition we have been talking about for 5 months. Bullshit. NSIDC wrote an article implying when water froze it could cause the cooling atmosphere to become hotter. You then produced the Florida article and said they got 4 degrees of warming and later said they had developed the novel heating tech. Later you said nobody was talking about heating if water was on before the frost!! Sigurdur is still saying temperatures rise in orchards when water freezes. Nauttonier was rambling on about spikes of heating without being able to read The act of water freezing cannot raise cooling temperatures. Some other change is required like it becomes windy. The Florida article is obviously misleading. Sig says it is not misleading. You have been praising farmers for seven months Why do you find it so hard to agree on something so incredibly simple? ? I have said now about 20 times that freezing water cannot create heat spikes in cooling air unless there is another change at the same time such as it becomes more windy. >>This is a moronic argument because it would only be true if the air were cooling faster than the freezing water can transfer heat to it. The act of water freezing alone cannot create a heat spike if the air is cooling. Potentially the Arctic air cools, freezing begins with continued air cooling and then when the wind speed increases it creates heat spikes, where a combination of the heat released from the warmer OC ice, latent heat released from OC water, and heat released from warmer water enables a greater heat transfer as the wind blows harder across the various surfaces.
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