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Post by Andrew on Feb 6, 2014 17:43:10 GMT
You are the fool who refuses to see the farmers are talking about latent heat heating. You are a fool who does not see that the release of latent heat maintains the temperature of water at 32F by heating the water, whether the water is at 32F or below 32F and that heats the orchard. If you are above the orchard you can pass your hand (or thermometer if you are big wuss and need to wear gloves) down over this cauldron of 32F water and feel (read) the heat. A fool is one who has never looked and flaps his jaws or does not believe it when they do look and see it. Correct. The latent heat heats the water and the water heats whatever is cooling the water. No latent heat is released externally, the latent heat can only be consumed by maintaining the temperature of the water. The freezing process alone, without supercooling, cannot possibly raise the temperature of a cooling object. The farmers are totally muddled up. Whether i am right or wrong that is what was described to you from day one of this conversation. You cant take a bucket of water at 0.0001C and cool it down a little bit and then a bang you can heat your house. No novel heating solutions are possible from freezing water because there is no external release of exothermic energy when water freezes like a bomb going off unless the water is supercooled.
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Post by icefisher on Feb 7, 2014 1:56:26 GMT
You are a fool who does not see that the release of latent heat maintains the temperature of water at 32F by heating the water, whether the water is at 32F or below 32F and that heats the orchard. If you are above the orchard you can pass your hand (or thermometer if you are big wuss and need to wear gloves) down over this cauldron of 32F water and feel (read) the heat. A fool is one who has never looked and flaps his jaws or does not believe it when they do look and see it. Correct. The latent heat heats the water and the water heats whatever is cooling the water. No latent heat is released externally, the latent heat can only be consumed by maintaining the temperature of the water. The freezing process alone, without supercooling, cannot possibly raise the temperature of a cooling object. The farmers are totally muddled up. Whether i am right or wrong that is what was described to you from day one of this conversation. You cant take a bucket of water at 0.0001C and cool it down a little bit and then a bang you can heat your house. No novel heating solutions are possible from freezing water because there is no external release of exothermic energy when water freezes like a bomb going off unless the water is supercooled. Without supercooling? Why not just say that latent heat is like any other heat in regards to its heating ability of the water? Another object cannot heat water above its own temperature and the effective temperature of latent heat of freezing of water is 0 deg C. Therefore it will heat stuff colder than that and not heat stuff as warm or warmer than that. You guys seem to have dreamed up the idea that somebody was suggesting its effective temperature was greater or that it was ineffective at warming stuff when released below its effective temperature. At least Numno dropped out of this argument 6 months ago after about a week of this being an issue, for some reason you can't figure it out. " Correct. The latent heat heats the water and the water heats whatever is cooling the water." Thats kind of an odd way of putting it. Latent heat is simply part of the internal energy of ice. Its energy like any other energy which is employed in a different way when in frozen water than when its in unfrozen water. But there is no question its the same energy in both states. You are imagining some kind of queue outside the bounds of any observed science when you try to separate it. Its the energy in water, including latent heat, that heats what cools the water. When you say its the water heats something else its the water with that energy included. As usual you are merely splitting hairs and playing word games to pretend you are more knowledgeable. In fact when Numno said the energy was deployed to expand ice and chip rocks, its exactly not what latent heat does. Its like he had a brain fart and got the latent heat exactly backwards.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 7, 2014 5:24:43 GMT
Correct. The latent heat heats the water and the water heats whatever is cooling the water. No latent heat is released externally, the latent heat can only be consumed by maintaining the temperature of the water. The freezing process alone, without supercooling, cannot possibly raise the temperature of a cooling object. The farmers are totally muddled up. Whether i am right or wrong that is what was described to you from day one of this conversation. You cant take a bucket of water at 0.0001C and cool it down a little bit and then a bang you can heat your house. No novel heating solutions are possible from freezing water because there is no external release of exothermic energy when water freezes like a bomb going off unless the water is supercooled. Without supercooling? Why not just say that latent heat is like any other heat in regards to its heating ability of the water? Another object cannot heat water above its own temperature and the effective temperature of latent heat of freezing of water is 0 deg C. Therefore it will heat stuff colder than that and not heat stuff as warm or warmer than that. You guys seem to have dreamed up the idea that somebody was suggesting its effective temperature was greater or that it was ineffective at warming stuff when released below its effective temperature. At least Numno dropped out of this argument 6 months ago after about a week of this being an issue, for some reason you can't figure it out. " Correct. The latent heat heats the water and the water heats whatever is cooling the water." Thats kind of an odd way of putting it. Latent heat is simply part of the internal energy of ice. Its energy like any other energy which is employed in a different way when in frozen water than when its in unfrozen water. But there is no question its the same energy in both states. You are imagining some kind of queue outside the bounds of any observed science when you try to separate it. Its the energy in water, including latent heat, that heats what cools the water. When you say its the water heats something else its the water with that energy included. As usual you are merely splitting hairs and playing word games to pretend you are more knowledgeable. In fact when Numno said the energy was deployed to expand ice and chip rocks, its exactly not what latent heat does. Its like he had a brain fart and got the latent heat exactly backwards. Latent heat is not part of the internal energy of ice. The ice no longer has the energy Its like you had a brain fart and got the latent heat exactly backwards.
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Post by icefisher on Feb 7, 2014 6:19:07 GMT
Without supercooling? Why not just say that latent heat is like any other heat in regards to its heating ability of the water? Another object cannot heat water above its own temperature and the effective temperature of latent heat of freezing of water is 0 deg C. Therefore it will heat stuff colder than that and not heat stuff as warm or warmer than that. You guys seem to have dreamed up the idea that somebody was suggesting its effective temperature was greater or that it was ineffective at warming stuff when released below its effective temperature. At least Numno dropped out of this argument 6 months ago after about a week of this being an issue, for some reason you can't figure it out. " Correct. The latent heat heats the water and the water heats whatever is cooling the water." Thats kind of an odd way of putting it. Latent heat is simply part of the internal energy of ice. Its energy like any other energy which is employed in a different way when in frozen water than when its in unfrozen water. But there is no question its the same energy in both states. You are imagining some kind of queue outside the bounds of any observed science when you try to separate it. Its the energy in water, including latent heat, that heats what cools the water. When you say its the water heats something else its the water with that energy included. As usual you are merely splitting hairs and playing word games to pretend you are more knowledgeable. In fact when Numno said the energy was deployed to expand ice and chip rocks, its exactly not what latent heat does. Its like he had a brain fart and got the latent heat exactly backwards. Latent heat is not part of the internal energy of ice. The ice no longer has the energy Its like you had a brain fart and got the latent heat exactly backwards. AMAZING! You got something right! Stuff happens.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 26, 2015 5:18:15 GMT
I wrote to the authors again to clarify the status of my enquiry
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Post by acidohm on Sept 26, 2015 10:27:11 GMT
Why don't you just call them??? Everyone is doing it these days!
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Post by Andrew on Sept 26, 2015 12:38:33 GMT
Why don't you just call them??? Everyone is doing it these days! At the moment I am not that motivated to spend money to enable people to realise that when freezing water is cooled by a colder environment it produces fewer BTU's per instant of time than warmer water produces when being cooled by the colder environment. As Numerouno pointed out, no novel heating techniques for home heating can be created by freezing water, no puffs of warm air can be created as ice freezes and so forth.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 27, 2015 5:17:02 GMT
Since the latent heat discussion is rolling endlessly onwards and has been going for 7 months and the same link that was provided 7 months ago has been raised yet again to say freezing causes temperature to be higher in orchards i wrote to the University of Florida Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences to ask them to clarify what they are talking about. ------------------------------- Re: edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ch182Microsprinkler Irrigation for Cold Protection of Florida Citrus1 L. R. Parsons and B. J. Boman Hi, This article appears to be making the claim that when water freezes - as temperatures fall in an orchard - the freezing process is somehow able to raise temperatures in the orchard. Freezing cannot do that. All freezing can do is maintain the temperature of the ice and water mixture at 0C where when the water was 0.0001C the water provided more heating for the orchard than the freezing mixture can do. Icefisher: Andrew has a temporary mental block. No sense beating a dead horse, nor picking up a shovel to dig the grave deeper. He is a bright feller, give him some time to grasp the actual concept. He has a bad case of Skeptical Science Syndrome right now, but he is too smart to not get over that illness. Idiot! What kind of moron thinks if you freeze water it creates higher temperatures in a previously cooling orchard? Andrew: I and others have tried to demonstrate real world observations to you. Enough of the name calling. IF you can't be a gentleman...go somewhere else. Thank you. I come to this board to share thoughts/papers with folks who can think out of the box of AGW....I don't come to be insulted. I would hope you share my sentiment. Thank you. I have tried to explain to you dozens of times in dozens of ways why you are wrong. Your position is totally illogical. Freezing water produces fewer btu's per second than warmer water, so it cannot possibly heat the cooling orchard to a higher temperature than the water can do. All you ever do is quote latent heat theory but you never interact with my explanation of why you are wrong. You have to do more than just get a book out and quote passages about latent heat Why do you refuse to interact with my points? Freezing water produces fewer btu's per second than warmer water. If the temps are falling with more BTus per second there is no way on gods earth that fewer btus for all of eternity can create higher temperatures. Are you ever going to interact with that text?? Andrew: The phase change of water to ice releases MORE BTU per second than cooling water. That is why it can HALT the temp drop, which cooling water can't do. It not only halts the temp drop on a plant, the phase change can warm the orchard as demonstrated in Florida. This works worldwide by the way. Should even work in Finland as physics doesn't recognize boundaries. Quite clearly farmers were being mislead that freezing creates more warming than can be provided by more water or using warmer water so that freezing is prevented Meanwhile I never did hear back from those extension biologists 'splaining how latent heat works in 'merica You won't hear back. It is so well established here and used so extensively that they prob thought you were joking.
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Post by Andrew on Oct 2, 2016 5:12:21 GMT
I never did hear back from those biologists even though I got personal replies back from the coordinator and again when I followed it up in september 2015. Just wrote again! This enquiry began in January 2014 However, as the latent heat saga just rolls on and on, and we have yet another incorrect page to deal with, I have written to one of the contributing authors of this latest set of pages who still works at NC University Description of how Latent heat creates cloud bouyancy in K12 Climate pagesaaiyyerXXXXXncsuXXXX Hi Re: climate.ncsu.edu/edu/k12/.lsheatI saw you listed as a contributing author for these K12 climate education pages at NC University This page does not clearly distinquish between latent heat and sensible heat and then goes on to incorrectly say when water vapour cools the released latent heat warms the surrounding atmosphere which creates bouyancy. The release of Latent heat cannot directly produce any sensible heating whatsoever - greater heating was available before condensation began when the water vapour was warmer. The correct view is cooled moist air does not cool as much as the surrounding drier air and therefore it becomes ***relatively warmer*** rather than as the text suggest, latent heat warms the surrounding air by releasing latent heat. Is it possible to have the text changed please? Kind regards Andrew
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Post by Andrew on Oct 2, 2016 7:14:56 GMT
Just for the record. My comment in red: Not sure why you posted this but using your own chart shows Sigurdur is correct. At the moment I am not that motivated to spend money to enable people to realise that when freezing water is cooled by a colder environment it produces fewer BTU's per instant of time than warmer water produces when being cooled by the colder environment. As Numerouno pointed out, no novel heating techniques for home heating can be created by freezing water, no puffs of warm air can be created as ice freezes and so forth. As can be clearly seen on the above chart, freezing ice (black line) is providing more energy per unit time than water would without freezing (red line). A diverting strawman. That produces the puff of warmer air. Puff of warmer air??? When you lost this argument before you decided to insert the words "than warmer air". Obviously Andrew do you take us for a bunch of morons? Nobody ever said that the heat emitted by ice was more than "hotter" water another strawman, people are not talking about ice emitting more BTU's per second but rather the act of water freezing when it forms ice you just did one of your patented attempts at strawman Sigurdur is claiming freezing water produces more BTU's per instance of time, than warmer water and he says that is why the temperature stabilises at 0C and Icefisher is supporting him, talking about puffs of warmer air when water freezes, and falsely accusing me of changing goal posts. Meanwhile this whole sorry saga began with this: Yes, fine, I can definitely see no cooling. this is the time of year when you start seeing heat spikes in the atmosphere from the release of water heat energy as the water freezes. The following should make it clearer freezing produces fewer btu per second than the warmer water can.
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Post by icefisher on Oct 2, 2016 11:56:39 GMT
As Numerouno pointed out, no novel heating techniques for home heating can be created by freezing water, no puffs of warm air can be created as ice freezes and so forth. This is how Andrew switches goal posts. From you can't heat anything with latent heat it becomes you cannot do it in a "novel" manner. Which of course implies you can do it. If you are in the antarctic and the outside temp is -60C, freezing water vapor does warm the air. Ask any Eskimo. Perhaps some one is too ignorant to realize that 0C is warmer than -60C. We go on to heat spikes in the arctic when the temps are more than 20c below zero and you can't warm anything there using latent heat either. Nothing novel about that. And actually you can do it in many "novel" ways too to get enhanced heating even to above zero temperatures. Andrew as he gets cornered then argues, dang guys you can't warm -60c air because the warmer water would have already done it. Which brings back to the farmers who are so much smarter than andrew. they actually use warmer than freezing water but use less of it than andrew would saving money on water and reducing heat loss by evaporation, and not harming their plants by flooding. Klutzy Andrew though is like a bull in a china shop and all he sees is the red cape narrowing his field of vision. Meanwhile that narrow field of vision is being applied to adiabatic cooling processes and Andrew who seems sometimes not able to balance more than one thought on a stick is missing the entire point. . . .again. But patience is the best teacher! Keep prodding!
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Post by icefisher on Oct 3, 2016 18:02:31 GMT
Here is what I would call an example of a state of the art article on the technologies of crop frost protection. I have not studied the entire document but its not based on thought experiments but actual tests of results. This I would think would be a mandatory read for a professional peach farmer at least at some point in time. Agriculture is based on science. The first four year university I went to was an agricultural school first and a university general education school second, the University of California Riverside. Andrew would like to inculcate us with his thought experiments and limited experience in the subjects he takes on. I learned a long time ago from experience the hard way that book learning in a University gives you some tools to work with but teaches you practically nothing about the dynamics of the real world. Way too many academics have fallen into that trap, ensconced in windowless office and provided with too powerful computers to build on their thought experiments. Obviously that does not apply to all academics in that some come in with real world experience under their belt, others find ways of doing a lot of field work to validate their thoughts or change them, which I believe the latter is more often the case. Anyway anybody interested in crop protection should read this article if they have not already read quite a few of them because from it you can at least get the flavor of what real science is all about. horttech.ashspublications.org/content/3/1/81.full.pdf+html?sid=e8eb72e3-1ceb-47e2-9b9e-0e4cee09d665
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Post by Andrew on Oct 16, 2016 5:36:51 GMT
The conversations on this board are insanely weird 2013: solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93468/thread Icefisher: Time of year when previously cooling temperatures are reversed by freezing solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93473/thread Icefisher: it takes latent heat not heating the air and releases it so it does heat the air. solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93492/thread Andrew: yes ice can heat the environment but the water created greater heating solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93493/thread Icefisher: not an acceptable answer solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93494/thread Andrew: Warmer sea creates greater heating than freezing sea. NSIDC article claiming atmosphere is warmer because of freezing is muddled up. solarcycle24com.proboards.com/post/93498/thread Icefisher: not an acceptable answer. Article is not misleading. NSIDC director Serreze writes to me personally and says they messed up and need to try harder and need people like me to keep them on their toes and Icefisher just supports Mr 'the ice will all be gone by 2013' Serreze. How could it have got even weirder from that level of weirdness? Andrew: The phase change of water to ice releases MORE BTU per second than cooling water. That is why it can HALT the temp drop, which cooling water can't do.It not only halts the temp drop on a plant, the phase change can warm the orchard as demonstrated in Florida. This works worldwide by the way. Should even work in Finland as physics doesn't recognize boundaries. So special physics operate in North Dakota even one year after Mark Serreze apologises to me **The farming extension biologists are talking about an increase in environmental heating capacity when water freezes but they are also saying this is due to latent heating which strongly suggests they are not actually claiming to have discovered something new about the physics of water freezing, but instead they have got muddled up by something - or we are from reading their texts. you bot everything right there andrew except you are the only one muddled up. if we want to compare 1c degree water to another liquid that doesn't freeze but requires one calorie per degree per gram to warm or cool and the objective is to protect a fruit by preventing it from dipping below minus 3c degrees, the water has 21 times the heat capacity of the other liquid for warming the environment so that the fruit will stay in that range of temperatures. Of that heat capacity more than 95% of it is provided by latent heat of fusion. Another unacceptable answer to Icefisher even while it is totally obvious special physics are operating in North Dakota and elsewhere according to the farmers who he links to support what he appears to be talking about when he defended the muddled up Serreze who had to get expert help from Nasa to answer my email. Then there are barycenters................
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Post by acidohm on Oct 16, 2016 7:14:18 GMT
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Post by missouriboy on Oct 16, 2016 11:31:08 GMT
Excellent Acidohm. I'm making a copy of this on the thread "The Sun's Influence" so when this thread reverts to the primordial blob, we can still find it.
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