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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 17:43:20 GMT
Ultimately, the theory of global warming resides with conservation. Differently, A tiny bit of heat, Stays just a bit longer near the surface. Causing it to be a bit warmer than it would have been. All the models come down to this simple supposition. The issue with the theory of conservation is the "heating" is instant and all the expected global warming is already done. The atmospheric "location of heat" has little meaning, About that we both agree. But don't get caught in the weeds of the discussion about it. It's not relevant to the discussion of global warming. You can spend a ton of effort looking for alternatives. You can try to find a place for the atmosphere to store the heat it obviously does. The actual reason for our "warm" planet is the large amount of water in the atmosphere, period. The ground evaporates water, in doing so huge amounts of latent heat is pent up... It floats up and that heat is released into the surrounding air. Heating the atmosphere. No need for magic co2 molecules that can heat objects warmer than it. P.S. I was talking to Sigurdur in the first post. Global warming is instantaneous. I think you are talking about the difficulty measuring it because the oceans as well as the shallower solid few hundred meters are such a large heat sink? What point are you wanting to make about that? No, the point is if CO2 is causing heating. The heating is instant and has already taken place and is in full effect. There is no delay. Unless we are to start discussing feed backs... Which hasn't been part of the discussion so far. Would you like to explore this line of thinking? Oceans... They can't be heated by the atmosphere for two reasons. The top 33 ft of ocean contains more mass than the entire atmosphere. So it's a much greater "heat sink". Ignoring evaporation for a min... To heat the first 33 ft of the ocean 1 degree would take millions of Joules taht simply aren't contained in the atmosphere. Reason two. Any increase in air temperature over the oceans will just increase evaporation... cause clouds... make less direct sun light available to heat things up. Didn't I tell you not to go off into the weeds?
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Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2016 18:03:02 GMT
Global warming is instantaneous. I think you are talking about the difficulty measuring it because the oceans as well as the shallower solid few hundred meters are such a large heat sink? What point are you wanting to make about that? No, the point is if CO2 is causing heating. The heating is instant and has already taken place and is in full effect. There is no delay. Unless we are to start discussing feed backs... Which hasn't been part of the discussion so far. Would you like to explore this line of thinking? Oceans... They can't be heated by the atmosphere for two reasons. The top 33 ft of ocean contains more mass than the entire atmosphere. So it's a much greater "heat sink". Ignoring evaporation for a min... To heat the first 33 ft of the ocean 1 degree would take millions of Joules taht simply aren't contained in the atmosphere. Reason two. Any increase in air temperature over the oceans will just increase evaporation... cause clouds... make less direct sun light available to heat things up. Didn't I tell you not to go off into the weeds? I thought you realised that CO2 was not causing heating in your first reply but just now you were talking about magic CO2 causing heating and now you are doing it again? Why on Earth are you talking about joules contained in the atmosphere needed to heat the oceans??
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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 18:06:54 GMT
No, the point is if CO2 is causing heating. The heating is instant and has already taken place and is in full effect. There is no delay. Unless we are to start discussing feed backs... Which hasn't been part of the discussion so far. Would you like to explore this line of thinking? Oceans... They can't be heated by the atmosphere for two reasons. The top 33 ft of ocean contains more mass than the entire atmosphere. So it's a much greater "heat sink". Ignoring evaporation for a min... To heat the first 33 ft of the ocean 1 degree would take millions of Joules taht simply aren't contained in the atmosphere. Reason two. Any increase in air temperature over the oceans will just increase evaporation... cause clouds... make less direct sun light available to heat things up. Didn't I tell you not to go off into the weeds? I thought you realised that CO2 was not causing heating in your first reply but just now you were talking about magic CO2 causing heating and now you are doing it again? Reread my reply... I said " IF co2 is causing heating" it's already taken place. You made the contention that ocean heating by the atmosphere was possible. I was discounting that offhand. It simply isn't possible for the air to heat the ocean. If one knows the properties of water. AKA BTU needed to evaporate a pound of water. Any simple calculations bare this out. That's why I suggested not getting into pointless discussions... AKA Atmosphere "heating" the ocean.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2016 18:23:19 GMT
I thought you realised that CO2 was not causing heating in your first reply but just now you were talking about magic CO2 causing heating and now you are doing it again? Reread my reply... I said " IF co2 is causing heating" it's already taken place. You made the contention that ocean heating by the atmosphere was possible. I was discounting that offhand. It simply isn't possible for the air to heat the ocean. If one knows the properties of water. AKA BTU needed to evaporate a pound of water. Any simple calculations bare this out. That's why I suggested not getting into pointless discussions... AKA Atmosphere "heating" the ocean. >>You made the contention that ocean heating by the atmosphere was possible I did not. The colder CO2 is not heating the surface. The colder atmosphere is not heating the oceans. The sun heats the planet to a higher temperature where heat losses from the surface are reduced by the atmosphere but this is not like insulation where heat gets trapped and accumulates. So....if something is heating the Surface layers to a higher temperature it takes a long time for this heating to bring the huge mass of the oceans to a new steady state temperature.
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2016 18:27:43 GMT
SW energy warms the oceans. LW energy does not warm the oceans.
CO2 is good at cooling the earth. That is about it.
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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 18:32:04 GMT
Reread my reply... I said " IF co2 is causing heating" it's already taken place. You made the contention that ocean heating by the atmosphere was possible. I was discounting that offhand. It simply isn't possible for the air to heat the ocean. If one knows the properties of water. AKA BTU needed to evaporate a pound of water. Any simple calculations bare this out. That's why I suggested not getting into pointless discussions... AKA Atmosphere "heating" the ocean. The colder CO2 is not heating the surface. The colder atmosphere is not heating the oceans. The sun heats the planet to a higher temperature where heat losses from the surface are prevented by the amtosphere but this is not like insulation where heat gets trapped and accumulates. So....if something is heating the Surface layers to a higher temperature it takes a long time for this heating to bring the huge mass of the oceans to a new steady state temperature. What method conserves the heat energy... but isn't insulation? Doesn't the warmer air just rise faster or higher? Does it matter if the clouds form at 20000 ft vs 22000 FT? Does your model take into account convection? The atmosphere isn't layers. Air is Air. So are you saying the oceans are losing heat slower? AKA insulation? What prevents faster evaporation with added heat?
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Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2016 18:35:53 GMT
SW energy warms the oceans. LW energy does not warm the oceans. CO2 is good at cooling the earth. That is about it. Your record here is to produce rubbish and never be accountable for it. All objects are cooling? it was just rubbish. junk bonds at the fed - rubbish Latent heat - god only knows what you were talking about Mass of the atmosphere and water?
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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 18:37:52 GMT
SW energy warms the oceans. LW energy does not warm the oceans. CO2 is good at cooling the earth. That is about it. True to a point. Excepting that the suns rays don't penetrate much past 30 ft with useful heat. The average temp of the ocean 39F is largely due to the fact that it takes the least energy to maintain it. Don't over think it.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2016 18:38:07 GMT
The colder CO2 is not heating the surface. The colder atmosphere is not heating the oceans. The sun heats the planet to a higher temperature where heat losses from the surface are prevented by the amtosphere but this is not like insulation where heat gets trapped and accumulates. So....if something is heating the Surface layers to a higher temperature it takes a long time for this heating to bring the huge mass of the oceans to a new steady state temperature. What method conserves the heat energy... but isn't insulation? Doesn't the warmer air just rise faster or higher? Does it matter if the clouds form at 20000 ft vs 22000 FT? Does your model take into account convection? The atmosphere isn't layers. Air is Air. So are you saying the oceans are losing heat slower? AKA insulation? What prevents faster evaporation with added heat? There are plenty of learning resources if you have so many questions and you want to learn.
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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 18:38:36 GMT
SW energy warms the oceans. LW energy does not warm the oceans. CO2 is good at cooling the earth. That is about it. Your record here is to produce rubbish and never be accountable for it. All objects are cooling? it was just rubbish. junk bonds at the fed - rubbish Latent heat - god only knows what you were talking about Mass of the atmosphere and water? Your record is that of bashing...
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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 18:40:16 GMT
What method conserves the heat energy... but isn't insulation? Doesn't the warmer air just rise faster or higher? Does it matter if the clouds form at 20000 ft vs 22000 FT? Does your model take into account convection? The atmosphere isn't layers. Air is Air. So are you saying the oceans are losing heat slower? AKA insulation? What prevents faster evaporation with added heat? There are plenty of learning resources if you have so many questions and you want to learn. LOL Listening to you is a fools errand.
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Post by Andrew on Feb 1, 2016 18:40:32 GMT
Your record here is to produce rubbish and never be accountable for it. All objects are cooling? it was just rubbish. junk bonds at the fed - rubbish Latent heat - god only knows what you were talking about Mass of the atmosphere and water? Your record is that of bashing... After 4 years of being bashed and listening to an never ending stream of garbage the only sensible option would have been to have left a long time ago. Yeah i have become a bit of a psycho since I found this board
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2016 18:43:02 GMT
SW energy warms the oceans. LW energy does not warm the oceans. CO2 is good at cooling the earth. That is about it. True to a point. Excepting that the suns rays don't penetrate much past 30 ft with useful heat. The average temp of the ocean 39F is largely due to the fact that it takes the least energy to maintain it. Don't over think it. I agree.
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Post by sigurdur on Feb 1, 2016 18:45:33 GMT
Your record is that of bashing... After 4 years of being bashed and listening to an never ending stream of garbage the only sensible option would have been to have left a long time ago. Yeah i have become a bit of a psycho since I found this board Andrew: You aren't a bit of a psycho. You ask good questions, but don't always understand the simple answers. I like what Stan wrote. "Don't overthink it".
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Post by stanb999 on Feb 1, 2016 18:52:12 GMT
Your record is that of bashing... After 4 years of being bashed and listening to an never ending stream of garbage the only sensible option would have been to have left a long time ago. Yeah i have become a bit of a psycho since I found this board Take it easy... We were discussing the latent heat in water vapor. Lets get back to it. K? I will take it slow for you. water is 1000 times as dense as air. It takes approx 970 BTUS to phase change (Go from liquid to a gas) one pound of water. Both of the above aren't in contention right? Water vapor is made at the surface by the sun. Then condenses back into liquid water at some nominal height in the atmosphere. Is this without contention? My contention is that water vapor rises into the air column with heat energy. As it condenses it provides "heat" to those higher regions in the atmosphere. Is this a point of contention? That heat provided high up in the atmosphere blankets the area below.
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