Post by wylie on May 26, 2009 16:52:39 GMT
All,
I noticed that many of the threads here at SC24 often revert to discussions of the lack of (or impossibility of) experiments to confirm or refute the AGW hypothesis. I was wondering if it would be helpful to discuss some actual atmospheric experiments that might go SOME way towards answering some of the questions about the basic physics of the atmosphere as it relates to Greenhouse Gases. Some of these may already have been conducted or proposed but I will put forward some preliminary ideas along these lines in case anyone else has would like to suggest experiments (or to reference experimental work that has already been done):
1) Measurements of the actual warming by CO2 and CH4 in a somewhat restricted locale (e.g. a crater or crater lake)
CO2 is denser than air. Partially filling an existing crater with CO2 might be possible and provide a support/refutation of the GHG theory. The approximate volume of the usually dry Barringer Crater in Arizona is ~1e8 m**3. To "fill" the crater with CO2 to an approximate doubling of the existing CO2 concentration, i.e. 400 to 800ppm would take (ROUGHLY) 80 tonnes of CO2. It costs about $25-$150/tonne for CO2 and of course it would cost a lot more for CO2 and temperature detectors and piping to distribute the CO2 uniformly about the crater (and to refill it as the CO2 poured out the top of the crater).
Since CH4 (methane) is supposed to be 20 times more effective a greenhouse gas than CO2 and CH4 weighs less than half of what CO2 weighs (although it is lighter than air), it would only take about about 2 tonnes of CH4 to provide the same "greenhouse warming effect".
The idea of the experiment would be to measure the temperature during the day and night in and around the crater and THEN to "fill it" (as much as possible) with the Greeenhouse gas in question and to MEASURE any changes in temperature caused by the presence of the gas in question.
2) A similar experiment to #1 above EXCEPT performed in a crater with a lot of water present (e.g. Irazu volcanic crater in Costa Rica).
The Irazu crater is a lot deeper than the one in Arizona and so has about double the volume. Also, it has a lake at the bottom of it. Using the greenhouse gas increase mentioned above, might be interesting to see if the "water vapor enhancement" (positive feedback) reported by the GCM would come into effect or not?
3) Similar to #1+ #2 above but in a deep canyon (with and without water) in the presence of wind blowing down the canyon
Perhaps with wind blowing down a canyon (the Grand Canyon??) CO2/Methane releases could be used to simulate the effect of greenhouse gas increases in the open atmosphere.
4) Monitoring existing volcanic craters for the emission of CO2 (many of them vent CO2 already)
Perhaps simply monitoring the Sun's heating and monitoring the CO2 concentrations (as determined only by Volcanic emissions) might provide similar results to experiments #1-3.
5) Monitoring CO2 concentrations and temperature downwind of cities or drilling platforms in the open ocean (CH4 releases)
6) It would take about 0.2tonnes of CO2 per m**2 of surface area to double the concentration of CO2 in a column of air (assuming a ~10km high atmosphere of the same concentration as ground level).
Perhaps releases of CO2 (both experimentally controlled and randomly caused by emissions sources) could be used to measure the local effect of Greenhouse Gases on the temperature.
If Kiwi is correct about the atmosphere's effect on warming, NONE of the experiments suggested above would have ANY effect on the temperature. Wouldn't it interesting to see if he is right or not? My hope is also that these experiments would support/refute the "radiative transfer equations" in the existing models and allow much better modeling of the effect of Greenhouse Gas emissions.
Any thoughts/suggestions about these types of experiments? Has anyone heard about this kind of work in the open atmosphere in the past?
Wouldn't it be nice to have solid data to support or refute these discussions?
IWylie
I noticed that many of the threads here at SC24 often revert to discussions of the lack of (or impossibility of) experiments to confirm or refute the AGW hypothesis. I was wondering if it would be helpful to discuss some actual atmospheric experiments that might go SOME way towards answering some of the questions about the basic physics of the atmosphere as it relates to Greenhouse Gases. Some of these may already have been conducted or proposed but I will put forward some preliminary ideas along these lines in case anyone else has would like to suggest experiments (or to reference experimental work that has already been done):
1) Measurements of the actual warming by CO2 and CH4 in a somewhat restricted locale (e.g. a crater or crater lake)
CO2 is denser than air. Partially filling an existing crater with CO2 might be possible and provide a support/refutation of the GHG theory. The approximate volume of the usually dry Barringer Crater in Arizona is ~1e8 m**3. To "fill" the crater with CO2 to an approximate doubling of the existing CO2 concentration, i.e. 400 to 800ppm would take (ROUGHLY) 80 tonnes of CO2. It costs about $25-$150/tonne for CO2 and of course it would cost a lot more for CO2 and temperature detectors and piping to distribute the CO2 uniformly about the crater (and to refill it as the CO2 poured out the top of the crater).
Since CH4 (methane) is supposed to be 20 times more effective a greenhouse gas than CO2 and CH4 weighs less than half of what CO2 weighs (although it is lighter than air), it would only take about about 2 tonnes of CH4 to provide the same "greenhouse warming effect".
The idea of the experiment would be to measure the temperature during the day and night in and around the crater and THEN to "fill it" (as much as possible) with the Greeenhouse gas in question and to MEASURE any changes in temperature caused by the presence of the gas in question.
2) A similar experiment to #1 above EXCEPT performed in a crater with a lot of water present (e.g. Irazu volcanic crater in Costa Rica).
The Irazu crater is a lot deeper than the one in Arizona and so has about double the volume. Also, it has a lake at the bottom of it. Using the greenhouse gas increase mentioned above, might be interesting to see if the "water vapor enhancement" (positive feedback) reported by the GCM would come into effect or not?
3) Similar to #1+ #2 above but in a deep canyon (with and without water) in the presence of wind blowing down the canyon
Perhaps with wind blowing down a canyon (the Grand Canyon??) CO2/Methane releases could be used to simulate the effect of greenhouse gas increases in the open atmosphere.
4) Monitoring existing volcanic craters for the emission of CO2 (many of them vent CO2 already)
Perhaps simply monitoring the Sun's heating and monitoring the CO2 concentrations (as determined only by Volcanic emissions) might provide similar results to experiments #1-3.
5) Monitoring CO2 concentrations and temperature downwind of cities or drilling platforms in the open ocean (CH4 releases)
6) It would take about 0.2tonnes of CO2 per m**2 of surface area to double the concentration of CO2 in a column of air (assuming a ~10km high atmosphere of the same concentration as ground level).
Perhaps releases of CO2 (both experimentally controlled and randomly caused by emissions sources) could be used to measure the local effect of Greenhouse Gases on the temperature.
If Kiwi is correct about the atmosphere's effect on warming, NONE of the experiments suggested above would have ANY effect on the temperature. Wouldn't it interesting to see if he is right or not? My hope is also that these experiments would support/refute the "radiative transfer equations" in the existing models and allow much better modeling of the effect of Greenhouse Gas emissions.
Any thoughts/suggestions about these types of experiments? Has anyone heard about this kind of work in the open atmosphere in the past?
Wouldn't it be nice to have solid data to support or refute these discussions?
IWylie