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Post by nautonnier on Aug 31, 2009 19:40:28 GMT
Well we are witnessing a rush for 'green jobs' which is matched by a similar rush to close down those _nasty_ fossil fueled power stations as well as <gasp> nuclear power. The problem is that the windmills don't quite seem up to providing sufficient power even with all that extra hot air from politicians. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/6118161/Third-World-rolling-blackouts-warning-as-Government-admits-power-shortfalls.htmlUK is not alone in the AGW masochism stakes: Obama and the Democrat Party are hurrying to catch up threatening to bankrupt all fossil fuel based power generation in the USA. So glc, Steve and SoCold had better get some 'long johns' and invest in a totally renewable wood burning stove each (while there is enough energy to smelt the iron for them of course). And that nice 'green' electric car will have to remain on the drive - there's no spare power to charge it with. At what stage will the populations of these first world countries revolt at being reduced to power poverty? |
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Post by jimcripwell on Aug 31, 2009 20:19:56 GMT
Good post Nautonnier. But I will venture another scenario. The UK is all set to bring on line 7 very large coal fired electric generating stations. I believe the UK currently generates about 70 gigawatts. I think that these new stations will each be capable of generating about 5 gigawatts. Dont forget, the UK has absolutely massive coal reserves.
The sop to the warmaholics is that the new stations will be designed and sited so the when CCS technology becomes available, it can be incorporated with no problems. Of course, CCS technology will not be available until these new stations are so old, that they will need to be replaced.
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Post by socold on Aug 31, 2009 21:12:19 GMT
We also have a plentiful supply of politicians. I am sure we'll find something to burn.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2009 1:50:02 GMT
We also have a plentiful supply of politicians. I am sure we'll find something to burn. The question is socold: Just how much hot air can these politicians produce? I mean, so far, with what used to appear as somewhat sound science, they have made decissions that now appear to be realllllllly stupid. And the science that they used, even tho they were warned it had serious flaws, is being shown to be about totally worthless nowdays. Bring on the heat fellers.......bring on the heat. I have wayyyyyy better crops when it is warm than I do when it is cold. |
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Post by sentient on Sept 1, 2009 3:14:55 GMT
Of course, there was this little gem in "Climate Crash" National Academies Press (2005):
"In 1994, geographer Scott Stine reported remarkably clear evi-
dence for extremely long droughts in California’s Sierra Nevada.
Using radiocarbon dating, Stine ascertained the age of the wood
in tree stumps he found rooted in the beds of modern mountain
lakes, streams, and marshes. The mountain range had endured more
than two centuries of drought from AD 892 to about AD 1112,
Stine reported, and another 140 years of drought that began about
AD 1209 and came to an end around AD 1350."
This just keeps happening folks. So you will need more than power, you may need to fill your canteens......
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Post by poitsplace on Sept 1, 2009 4:36:34 GMT
Of course, there was this little gem in "Climate Crash" National Academies Press (2005): "In 1994, geographer Scott Stine reported remarkably clear evi- dence for extremely long droughts in California’s Sierra Nevada. Using radiocarbon dating, Stine ascertained the age of the wood in tree stumps he found rooted in the beds of modern mountain lakes, streams, and marshes. The mountain range had endured more than two centuries of drought from AD 892 to about AD 1112, Stine reported, and another 140 years of drought that began about AD 1209 and came to an end around AD 1350." This just keeps happening folks. So you will need more than power, you may need to fill your canteens...... Having more CO2 in the air also helps plants to survive droughts by allowing them to get enough CO2 while keeping their pores mostly closed...lowering water loss. This is just one more way CO2 helps us and the environment. |
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Post by nautonnier on Sept 12, 2009 11:14:31 GMT
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Post by curiousgeorge on Sept 12, 2009 23:30:23 GMT
Modern infrastructure ( if it can be called that ) is severly lacking in many respects. Elec. transmission is just one of many areas that are creaking with old age. New power generation (regardless of type ) won't do much good without transformers and all the other gear that goes with it. A 5000w genny will go thru 5 gal of gas in about 8hrs. Petrol (gas) stations and their suppliers also need elec. to pump gas, etc. Better get used to candles and wood. And don't forget all the other essential inputs and outputs of a city or town - food, water, sewage, etc. that rely on electricity. If the grid goes down for more than a couple days - well - use your imagination. |
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Post by nautonnier on Sept 12, 2009 23:49:25 GMT
Well I have been there - and done that - thanks to a few hurricanes. You are right though; 3 days of power out and _everything_ starts going back to the stone age very rapidly. The best that a standby generator can do even linked up to a large propane tank is put off the time when civilization grinds to a halt.
However, in a world where there are continual brown outs or rolling power cuts a standby generator can keep you running when you need to be.
I still think the long term future is in small thorium pebble bed reactors. One sufficient for a street of houses or perhaps a sub-division (housing estate) would be possible and could be mass-produced.
What is guaranteed NOT to work is windmills.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Sept 13, 2009 0:42:30 GMT
Well I have been there - and done that - thanks to a few hurricanes. You are right though; 3 days of power out and _everything_ starts going back to the stone age very rapidly. The best that a standby generator can do even linked up to a large propane tank is put off the time when civilization grinds to a halt. However, in a world where there are continual brown outs or rolling power cuts a standby generator can keep you running when you need to be. I still think the long term future is in small thorium pebble bed reactors. One sufficient for a street of houses or perhaps a sub-division (housing estate) would be possible and could be mass-produced. What is guaranteed NOT to work is windmills. We get several power outages every spring and fall due to storms, none more than a few hours. Rural MS. The issue is not really small dispersed locales/neighborhoods, but the big mega cities and industrial centers. The logistics and resources required to keep a city like LA, NewYork, etc. alive are mind boggling. Recall what went on in New York the last time they had a big blackout back in the '90's. Not a place I would want to be. I can't even imagine what it would be like after a week without power in a place like that. Mass exodus to the surrounding countryside I suspect, and that would not be pretty either. |
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Post by poitsplace on Sept 13, 2009 10:10:23 GMT
I still think the long term future is in small thorium pebble bed reactors. One sufficient for a street of houses or perhaps a sub-division (housing estate) would be possible and could be mass-produced. I also like the newer reactors that use a small amount (about 1%) fissile uranium and then essentially all of the remaining pile of fuel is depleted uranium. As it generates power it undergoes a rolling breeder reactor process that produces and then consumes plutonium. Essentially the technology multiplies our current uranium reserves by 100 |
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Post by glc on Sept 13, 2009 12:07:20 GMT
Looks like more panic may be breaking out
"Britain is facing regular blackouts by 2016, Government adviser warns"
If you read your linked articles you will notice that the "government adviser" is pushing for a massive increase in renewable energy.
I must admit it is sometimes difficult to tell which side, "alarmist" or "sceptic", is actually creating the panic. Looking at recent WUWT posts, some of the claims are at least as idiotic as the more extreme warmist claims.
Thankfully, the ridiculous cooling predictions do appear to have dried up on this thread.
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Post by nautonnier on Sept 13, 2009 13:46:09 GMT
Looks like more panic may be breaking out
"Britain is facing regular blackouts by 2016, Government adviser warns"If you read your linked articles you will notice that the "government adviser" is pushing for a massive increase in renewable energy. I must admit it is sometimes difficult to tell which side, "alarmist" or "sceptic", is actually creating the panic. Looking at recent WUWT posts, some of the claims are at least as idiotic as the more extreme warmist claims. Thankfully, the ridiculous cooling predictions do appear to have dried up on this thread. Absolutely, and if _you_ read the articles more closely you will realize he is also pushing for nuclear power. 5 Sizewells (for the US readers Sizewell is a large nuclear power generation plant actually a pressurized water reactor in eastern England) the alternative being renting out space for solar power in the Libyan desert (I wonder why that country came to mind?). I am sure you regularly read treehugger.com glc  so you'll find the references easily. The point is that it is now being realized that a LOT more power is needed and fast or you will not be logging on quite so easily in 5 years time. It appears to have been accepted that covering UK with windmills is neither feasible in the time available nor would it provide the power required. As an aside - wind power is only possible due to convection - you know that other way of taking energy from the surface  |
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Post by sentient on Sept 16, 2009 11:57:12 GMT
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Post by nautonnier on Sept 16, 2009 14:22:08 GMT
And that's not all - wind turbines explode bat's lungs. "Beware: exploding lungs" is not a sign one would expect to see at a wind farm. But a new study suggests this is the main reason bats die in large numbers around wind turbines."www.newscientist.com/article/dn14593-wind-turbines-make-bat-lungs-explode.htmlwww.youtube.com/watch?v=KRqu4WiLQfkIts OK to kill protected species if its done by GREEN energy as the animals agony is in a good cause you see. (I wonder what Obama's new animal rights tsar thinks of this??) But there is a solution!!! "Now a solution is in sight. Researchers are testing a technique that they hope will prevent millions of bat deaths a year. They intend to start turning off the turbines when wind speeds are low and, coincidently, when bats are most likely to be nearby."www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/mar/23/wind-turbine-advocates-test-a-solution-to-explodin/Of course this means STOPPING the blades turning which also means a larger span of time when these bird and bat killers are not providing power. So not only on those cold clear winters nights with a hard frost (which CO 2 seems unable to prevent)..... do all the lights go out, but also on those evenings and nights when there is only a slight breeze - brownouts again. Then there is the problem of icing... "One possible problem with wind turbines is the remote possibility of the propeller icing up in winter. Of course if the propeller freezes in place, the turbine won't be of much use. However, if the wind generator is mounted in a clear location (without snow blowing off surrounding surfaces into the turbine) with fairly steady winter winds, the constant motion of the turbine should be sufficient to keep the propeller clear."www.ecodepotcr.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=44&Itemid=34The stopped windmills ice up and all the propellers 'freeze in place" someone has a bit of a job to do. While this may not be a problem in California - it may start becoming a problem in cooler climes when the propellers have to be stopped to avoid exploding nearby bats. |
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so you'll find the references easily.