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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 21, 2010 13:33:46 GMT
Here's an excellent editorial by Kathleen Parker at the WAPOST - www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/19/AR2010111904282.htmlPartial excerpt: Is this really for our own good? Or are we trading what's left of our human dignity by participating in a Kafkaesque farce that more closely resembles a college fraternity psychology experiment devised around a keg:
"Okay, here's the plan. Americans are terrified of an airplane bomber, right? So let's see what we can get them to do if we promise them safety."
"Like what?"
"I dunno, like let us touch their genitals and use scanners that show them naked, stuff like that."
"No WAY!"
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 21, 2010 19:24:42 GMT
www.vagabondish.com/tsa-rifle-bearing-soldiers-relinquish-nail-clippers/TSA Forces Assault Rifle-Bearing Soldier to Relinquish Nail Clippersby Mike Richard Just another in a long line of TSA outrages … BoingBoing points us to this unintentionally hilarious account from a U.S. soldier returning home from Afghanistan: How can the TSA drones not see how ridiculous their policies are? How?!? When you read that, do you really believe it? You don't see anything else wrong in that story?
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 21, 2010 19:35:04 GMT
Curious, I read the story. It is an opinion story, and that is fine, but the part you pasted in is a good example of an appeal to emotion rather than reason, don't you think? (kafkaesque? frat party? just messing with us?) There is some reason in the article, but the lead in certainly isn't.
I'm saying again, anybody can criticize without any investment. It takes very little effort to criticize, and costs nothing except perhaps gaining a reputation for doing so. People have a propensity to criticize and even claim how "stupid" things other people are doing are, but very often have not thought through the problems that led the other person to implement the current solution (however imperfect it is).
I really don't know why people do this ... perhaps it's as little as a need to build themselves up socially by pretending that they are that much smarter than the person who came up with the solution, or perphaps it's as serious as a real ego issue. It's more likely that it is a combination of reasons somewhere in between. I don't know what it is, but I've noticed the propensity to float these types of criticisms and put-downs even in areas that I know about and can see at first glance that the critic does not have technical expertise in the area they are pretending the implementors are clueless. That's just an observation of human nature on my part.
So I say back to those who criticize it: Come up with something better and send that feedback to the channels where it will actually make a difference. I notice a definite lack of actionable feedback from the critics in this area ... they seem to prefer finding unconfirmable anecdotes and floating criticism without investment.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 21, 2010 21:02:36 GMT
Curious, I read the story. It is an opinion story, and that is fine, but the part you pasted in is a good example of an appeal to emotion rather than reason, don't you think? (kafkaesque? frat party? just messing with us?) There is some reason in the article, but the lead in certainly isn't. I'm saying again, anybody can criticize without any investment. It takes very little effort to criticize, and costs nothing except perhaps gaining a reputation for doing so. People have a propensity to criticize and even claim how "stupid" things other people are doing are, but very often have not thought through the problems that led the other person to implement the current solution (however imperfect it is). I really don't know why people do this ... perhaps it's as little as a need to build themselves up socially by pretending that they are that much smarter than the person who came up with the solution, or perphaps it's as serious as a real ego issue. It's more likely that it is a combination of reasons somewhere in between. I don't know what it is, but I've noticed the propensity to float these types of criticisms and put-downs even in areas that I know about and can see at first glance that the critic does not have technical expertise in the area they are pretending the implementors are clueless. That's just an observation of human nature on my part. So I say back to those who criticize it: Come up with something better and send that feedback to the channels where it will actually make a difference. I notice a definite lack of actionable feedback from the critics in this area ... they seem to prefer finding unconfirmable anecdotes and floating criticism without investment. You're right of course, in the specifics of it. However, I tend to not look too closely at what some individual (media or otherwise ) says in a particular piece, but rather at the volume of comments and their general tone from a wide range of sources, including the web, tv, radio, newspapers and magazines, the fellas at the local coffee shop, etc. What I have noticed in the past few years is that the overall level of discontent ( over the range of issues in the public conciousness ) is up considerably and shows no signs of slowing. The particular issue (whatever it may be )is almost irrelevant. This increased level of free-floating public discontent makes me nervous, and likely makes the ptb nervous also, since I'm certain they have noticed the same thing. Some will tell you that it is part of some evil agenda, and maybe it is. I don't know. I just know I don't like it. I have no statistics that I can point to for this nervousness, only my own personal observations and feelings. Back in the day, I'd have said: "I have a bad feeling about this".
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 21, 2010 22:41:05 GMT
Interesting. I think I know what you're saying. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I have been thinking about that discontentment for a while. Let me put something forward and see what you think of it.
Do you think some of the feeling can come from location?
During all of the Clinton years, I lived in Oklahoma (think Tom Coburn and Jim Inhofe). People there were very discontent during those years, and very much felt left out by the "divisive" things put forward by Clinton.
I made my most recent move from Oklahoma to California during GWB's years. The people in Oklahoma were generally content with GWB and supportive. However; when I moved to the bay area, I heard from several about GWB's divisive actions and how we didn't have these types of divisions when Clinton was in office (a completely different world from the Central US).
Now, with another president, I know in Oklahoma, many again are feeling the division, while here in the Bay Area ... well, what can I say, we just re-elected Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer ... I don't see or hear discontent with Obama right now on the west coast (Central Valley excluded somewhat, but SCPG can probably tell you better than I can).
I think the advent of social networking the last few years has tended to escalate the rumor mill and probably helps to aggravate some of the feelings of division ... I see political evangelists of all stripes on there constantly trying to "educate" us into their viewpoint, and I see a lot more anecdotes (some beyond ridiculous) to support those political viewpoints. I don't know what the net effect of that is, but it doesn't seem to be a uniting thing these days.
Not trying to convince anyone of anything with this post. I'd just like to get your take on it. Can locality have something to do with the tensions? If so, where do you think it is leading?
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 21, 2010 23:26:37 GMT
Interesting. I think I know what you're saying. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I have been thinking about that discontentment for a while. Let me put something forward and see what you think of it. Do you think some of the feeling can come from location? During all of the Clinton years, I lived in Oklahoma (think Tom Coburn and Jim Inhofe). People there were very discontent during those years, and very much felt left out by the "divisive" things put forward by Clinton. I made my most recent move from Oklahoma to California during GWB's years. The people in Oklahoma were generally content with GWB and supportive. However; when I moved to the bay area, I heard from several about GWB's divisive actions and how we didn't have these types of divisions when Clinton was in office (a completely different world from the Central US). Now, with another president, I know in Oklahoma, many again are feeling the division, while here in the Bay Area ... well, what can I say, we just re-elected Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer ... I don't see or hear discontent with Obama right now on the west coast (Central Valley excluded somewhat, but SCPG can probably tell you better than I can). I think the advent of social networking the last few years has tended to escalate the rumor mill and probably helps to aggravate some of the feelings of division ... I see political evangelists of all stripes on there constantly trying to "educate" us into their viewpoint, and I see a lot more anecdotes (some beyond ridiculous) to support those political viewpoints. I don't know what the net effect of that is, but it doesn't seem to be a uniting thing these days. Not trying to convince anyone of anything with this post. I'd just like to get your take on it. Can locality have something to do with the tensions? If so, where do you think it is leading? There are regional divisions, yes. Also class, education, economic, political, religious, etc. I've lived all over this country (and in several others), N,S,E,W and those divisions are easily recognized. I'm speaking more of the general discontent regardless ( or perhaps inclusive ) of any of those divisions, and not just the Bush v. Obama or Republican v. Democrat v. Independent v. whoever, partisanship. Put simply, it seems that everyone has a beef regardless of their affiliation with any of the above and are increasingly vocal about it. You've heard the term Multi-Polar world? I'd suggest that describes current society, not only in the US, but around the globe as well. As for where it's leading? My first inclination is "Social Chaos", but I'd hesitate to put a timeframe on that, and it may be too strong of a description. On the other hand, there have been serious discussions of secession in some States in recent years, and I don't recall too many times in the past where States and coalitions of States have sued the Fed. Gov't at the levels we see recently for violations of various Constitutional issues. Nor have I seen such rapid and intrusive growth in Federal Regulations (EPA comes to mind, but there are others as well ), as we are seeing now. If the reality, or perception, of society by the Gov't is one of increasing "chaos", that in itself becomes a driver for increasing regulation, and control by them in an attempt to forestall it. Which, of course, leads to exactly the opposite result from what was intended. It becomes a self-reinforcing vicious circle with a very predictable conclusion.
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 22, 2010 3:34:55 GMT
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 22, 2010 3:35:21 GMT
Interesting. I think I know what you're saying. I'm not sure what to make of it, but I have been thinking about that discontentment for a while. Let me put something forward and see what you think of it. Do you think some of the feeling can come from location? During all of the Clinton years, I lived in Oklahoma (think Tom Coburn and Jim Inhofe). People there were very discontent during those years, and very much felt left out by the "divisive" things put forward by Clinton. I made my most recent move from Oklahoma to California during GWB's years. The people in Oklahoma were generally content with GWB and supportive. However; when I moved to the bay area, I heard from several about GWB's divisive actions and how we didn't have these types of divisions when Clinton was in office (a completely different world from the Central US). Now, with another president, I know in Oklahoma, many again are feeling the division, while here in the Bay Area ... well, what can I say, we just re-elected Nancy Pelosi and Barbara Boxer ... I don't see or hear discontent with Obama right now on the west coast (Central Valley excluded somewhat, but SCPG can probably tell you better than I can). I think the advent of social networking the last few years has tended to escalate the rumor mill and probably helps to aggravate some of the feelings of division ... I see political evangelists of all stripes on there constantly trying to "educate" us into their viewpoint, and I see a lot more anecdotes (some beyond ridiculous) to support those political viewpoints. I don't know what the net effect of that is, but it doesn't seem to be a uniting thing these days. Not trying to convince anyone of anything with this post. I'd just like to get your take on it. Can locality have something to do with the tensions? If so, where do you think it is leading? There are regional divisions, yes. Also class, education, economic, political, religious, etc. I've lived all over this country (and in several others), N,S,E,W and those divisions are easily recognized. I'm speaking more of the general discontent regardless ( or perhaps inclusive ) of any of those divisions, and not just the Bush v. Obama or Republican v. Democrat v. Independent v. whoever, partisanship. Put simply, it seems that everyone has a beef regardless of their affiliation with any of the above and are increasingly vocal about it. You've heard the term Multi-Polar world? I'd suggest that describes current society, not only in the US, but around the globe as well. As for where it's leading? My first inclination is "Social Chaos", but I'd hesitate to put a timeframe on that, and it may be too strong of a description. On the other hand, there have been serious discussions of secession in some States in recent years, and I don't recall too many times in the past where States and coalitions of States have sued the Fed. Gov't at the levels we see recently for violations of various Constitutional issues. Nor have I seen such rapid and intrusive growth in Federal Regulations (EPA comes to mind, but there are others as well ), as we are seeing now. If the reality, or perception, of society by the Gov't is one of increasing "chaos", that in itself becomes a driver for increasing regulation, and control by them in an attempt to forestall it. Which, of course, leads to exactly the opposite result from what was intended. It becomes a self-reinforcing vicious circle with a very predictable conclusion. It seems to me that we are witnessing an erosion of freedoms. People are not quit sure what they are loosing, but they know they are loosing something valuable. Being slowly chipped away. They also recognize the shift in wealth to the hands of a few. That is a recent happening in the US. People understand it is happening, but don't know what to do to change the direction of it. That goes hand in hand with their feeling of loss of freedoms.
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 22, 2010 3:36:46 GMT
SA pat-down leaves traveler covered in urine
'I was absolutely humiliated,' said bladder cancer survivor By Harriet Baskas Travel writer A retired special education teacher on his way to a wedding in Orlando, Fla., said he was left humiliated, crying and covered with his own urine after an enhanced pat-down by TSA officers recently at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. “I was absolutely humiliated, I couldn’t even speak,” said Thomas D. “Tom” Sawyer, 61, of Lansing, Mich. Sawyer is a bladder cancer survivor who now wears a urostomy bag, which collects his urine from a stoma, or opening in his stomach. “I have to wear special clothes and in order to mount the bag I have to seal a wafer to my stomach and then attach the bag. If the seal is broken, urine can leak all over my body and clothes.” On Nov. 7, Sawyer said he went through the security scanner at Detroit Metropolitan Airport. “Evidently the scanner picked up on my urostomy bag, because I was chosen for a pat-down procedure.” Due to his medical condition, Sawyer asked to be screened in private. “One officer looked at another, rolled his eyes and said that they really didn’t have any place to take me,” said Sawyer. “After I said again that I’d like privacy, they took me to an office.” Sawyer wears pants two sizes too large in order to accommodate the medical equipment he wears. He’d taken off his belt to go through the scanner and once in the office with security personnel, his pants fell down around his ankles. “I had to ask twice if it was OK to pull up my shorts,” said Sawyer, “And every time I tried to tell them about my medical condition, they said they didn’t need to know about that.” www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40291856/ns/travel-news
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 22, 2010 3:40:29 GMT
TSA Tactics Find Ominous Parallel in Nazi Germany Kurt Nimmo Infowars.com November 21, 2010 The TSA is part of a larger effort to implement a slow motion surveillance and high-tech police state control grid in America. It is an element of the “alternative geography” of the military-corporate-intelligence establishment, an aspect specifically designed to acclimate Americans to the prospect of an ever encroaching police state. The tight integration of the corporate-government aspect of this alternative geography is demonstrated by the relationship the government has with the Chertoff Group, a public relations firm pushing naked body scanners founded by Michael Chertoff, the former boss of the Department of Homeland Security. The new procedures defended over the weekend by Barry Obama from a NATO summit in Portugal are not about finding the next underwear bomber and protecting the American people from al-Qaeda. The latest procedures are designed to get the American people accustomed to the idea that the police, the alternative geography of the military-corporate-intelligence network, and the government will micro-manage and control the public and eventually all aspects of our private lives. Events reveal that the government is not interested in preventing an al-Qaeda attack, but keeping tabs on and when possible subverting opposition to its power. It took Hitler and the Nazis nearly a decade to impose a murderous police state on the German people. In the wake of the staged burning of the Reichstag in February of 1933, the Nazis suspended the civil liberties of the German people and began a concerted effort to eliminate all opposition to their fascist regime. The Nazis would later stage a false flag incident known as the Gleiwitz incident in order to provide and excuse to invade Poland and start the Second World War. Left unchallenged, government invariably evolves into a tyrannical force at odds with the interest of the people. Minus effective opposition, the people of Germany had little choice but to support Hitler and his ill-fated war. It has taken the federal government and its Department of Homeland Security – an agency on the drawing board well before September 11, 2001 – to implement police state tactics in regard to travel that far surpass anything devised by the Nazis. Even before the attacks of September 11, 2001, the government planned to create and impose a police state control grid on the American people. For instance, the Bill of Rights crushing Patriot Act was devised well before the attack and its predecessor, the 1996 Antiterrorism Act, was rushed into law following the first suspicious attack on the World Trade Center and the equally suspicious attack in Oklahoma City. Habeas corpus law was forever changed by the law touted by then president Bill Clinton. Armed with its new and draconian palette of laws and mandates, the federal government, including the FBI, the CIA, and the Pentagon, have exploited the September 11 attacks to go after the real enemy – the American people. The Pentagon has surveilled the antiwar movement and the Department of Homeland Security with its state level partners in Missouri and elsewhere around the country have profiled entirely legal “rightwing” political organizations and individuals as potential terrorists. The corporate media, acting as the establishment’s ministry of propaganda, has amplified this absurd terrorist myth. As the founders realized, government left to its own devices and unrestrained by the people invariably turns into a tyrannical leviathan. Groping TSA screeners and dangerous radiation naked body scanners are the public visage of the state as it slowly morphs into a high-tech tyranny. President Barry Obama, DHS boss Janet Napolitano, and TSA director John Pistole have said naked body scanners will remain and the sexual molestation at America’s airports will continue. “I understand how difficult it is, and how offensive it must be for the people who are going through it,” said Secretary of State Clinton today. Clinton said the government is “trying to do the right thing” by expanding the intrusive nature of the police state. “Clinton has likely rarely, if ever, dealt with metal detectors, explosives swabs, full-body backscatter scanners or pat-downs as an air traveler since she began receiving Secret Service protection with her husband, former President Bill Clinton, in 1992,” reports the Christian Science Monitor. Fresh food that lasts from eFoods Direct (Ad) But then the police state and its ever growing manifestations of surveillance and control are not for the likes of Hillary Clinton and other leaders, officials, and minions of government power. The growing police state grid is for the American people because since time immemorial government has been an enemy of the people. www.infowars.com/tsa-tactics-find-ominous-parallel-in-nazi-germany/
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 22, 2010 5:27:43 GMT
TSA Tactics Find Ominous Parallel in Nazi Germany Kurt Nimmo Infowars.com November 21, 2010 The TSA is part of a larger effort to implement a slow motion surveillance and high-tech police state control grid in America. It is an element of the “alternative geography” of the military-corporate-intelligence establishment, an aspect specifically designed to acclimate Americans to the prospect of an ever encroaching police state. The tight integration of the corporate-government aspect of this alternative geography is demonstrated by the relationship the government has with the Chertoff Group, a public relations firm pushing naked body scanners founded by Michael Chertoff, the former boss of the Department of Homeland Security. The new procedures defended over the weekend by Barry Obama from a NATO summit in Portugal are not about finding the next underwear bomber and protecting the American people from al-Qaeda. The latest procedures are designed to get the American people accustomed to the idea that the police, the alternative geography of the military-corporate-intelligence network, and the government will micro-manage and control the public and eventually all aspects of our private lives. Events reveal that the government is not interested in preventing an al-Qaeda attack, but keeping tabs on and when possible subverting opposition to its power. It took Hitler and the Nazis nearly a decade to impose a murderous police state on the German people. In the wake of the staged burning of the Reichstag in February of 1933, the Nazis suspended the civil liberties of the German people and began a concerted effort to eliminate all opposition to their fascist regime. The Nazis would later stage a false flag incident known as the Gleiwitz incident in order to provide and excuse to invade Poland and start the Second World War. Left unchallenged, government invariably evolves into a tyrannical force at odds with the interest of the people. Minus effective opposition, the people of Germany had little choice but to support Hitler and his ill-fated war. It has taken the federal government and its Department of Homeland Security – an agency on the drawing board well before September 11, 2001 – to implement police state tactics in regard to travel that far surpass anything devised by the Nazis. Even before the attacks of September 11, 2001, the government planned to create and impose a police state control grid on the American people. For instance, the Bill of Rights crushing Patriot Act was devised well before the attack and its predecessor, the 1996 Antiterrorism Act, was rushed into law following the first suspicious attack on the World Trade Center and the equally suspicious attack in Oklahoma City. Habeas corpus law was forever changed by the law touted by then president Bill Clinton. Armed with its new and draconian palette of laws and mandates, the federal government, including the FBI, the CIA, and the Pentagon, have exploited the September 11 attacks to go after the real enemy – the American people. The Pentagon has surveilled the antiwar movement and the Department of Homeland Security with its state level partners in Missouri and elsewhere around the country have profiled entirely legal “rightwing” political organizations and individuals as potential terrorists. The corporate media, acting as the establishment’s ministry of propaganda, has amplified this absurd terrorist myth. As the founders realized, government left to its own devices and unrestrained by the people invariably turns into a tyrannical leviathan. Groping TSA screeners and dangerous radiation naked body scanners are the public visage of the state as it slowly morphs into a high-tech tyranny. President Barry Obama, DHS boss Janet Napolitano, and TSA director John Pistole have said naked body scanners will remain and the sexual molestation at America’s airports will continue. “I understand how difficult it is, and how offensive it must be for the people who are going through it,” said Secretary of State Clinton today. Clinton said the government is “trying to do the right thing” by expanding the intrusive nature of the police state. “Clinton has likely rarely, if ever, dealt with metal detectors, explosives swabs, full-body backscatter scanners or pat-downs as an air traveler since she began receiving Secret Service protection with her husband, former President Bill Clinton, in 1992,” reports the Christian Science Monitor. Fresh food that lasts from eFoods Direct (Ad) But then the police state and its ever growing manifestations of surveillance and control are not for the likes of Hillary Clinton and other leaders, officials, and minions of government power. The growing police state grid is for the American people because since time immemorial government has been an enemy of the people. www.infowars.com/tsa-tactics-find-ominous-parallel-in-nazi-germany/ Oh my gosh! (drops shaking head into hands). Honestly, you're not helping your cause.
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Post by byz on Nov 22, 2010 12:54:07 GMT
Over here in the UK we have had ongoing terrorism since the late 1960's, however we have never allowed this to erode our basic human rights.
I cannot understand why the US is going down this route and over here many airlines are saying that UK citizens are being put though unnecessary checks before flying to the US. It almost seems to be blind panic, whereas here we have alway just got on with things, which actually undermines the terrorists as what they want is a reaction.
I think to balance things up all US citizens should have to have a full cavity search if they fly through european airspace. I think that if this was going to happen to your politicians within a very short timescale many of these measures would be dropped ;D
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 22, 2010 19:36:25 GMT
Over here in the UK we have had ongoing terrorism since the late 1960's, however we have never allowed this to erode our basic human rights. I cannot understand why the US is going down this route and over here many airlines are saying that UK citizens are being put though unnecessary checks before flying to the US. It almost seems to be blind panic, whereas here we have alway just got on with things, which actually undermines the terrorists as what they want is a reaction. I think to balance things up all US citizens should have to have a full cavity search if they fly through european airspace. I think that if this was going to happen to your politicians within a very short timescale many of these measures would be dropped ;D they want to make us compliant cattle.
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 23, 2010 3:19:47 GMT
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 23, 2010 6:21:01 GMT
www.examiner.com/county-political-buzz-in-san-diego/tsa-airport-screeners-gone-wild-san-diego-againTSA airport screeners gone wild in San Diego- again * November 20th, 2010 6:19 pm PT In what can only be described as TSA handlers gone wild, the San Diego Harbor Police arrested an area resident for refusal to complete the screening/security process yesterday. This is the same airport that created the TSA security catch phrase “don’t touch my junk.” John Tyner of San Diego started the airport screening firestorm last week as Americans head into the busiest travel week of the year in the United States. This time the defendant, Sam Wolanyk says he was asked to pass through the 3-D x-ray machine. When Wolanyk refused, Transportation Security Administration (TSA) personnel told him he would have to be patted down before he could pass through and board his airplane. Wolanyk said he knew what was coming and took off his pants and shirt, leaving him in Calvin Klein bike undergarments. “It was obvious that my underwear left nothing to the imagination,” he explained. “But that wasn’t enough for the TSA supervisor who was called to the scene and asked me to put my clothes on so I could be properly patted down.” It was clear to Wolanyk that TSA only wanted him to submit to a pat-down and if they were interested in ensuring the safety of all passengers they would have rifled through his clothes, carryon baggage and acknowledged that he was not carrying any illegal paraphernalia on his person. Once Harbor Police arrested Wolanyk, he was handcuffed and paraded through two separate airport terminals in his underwear to the Harbor Police office located inside a different terminal at the airport than Wolanyk had originally gone through during his TSA security process. The incident was confirmed by Harbor Police Sergeant Rakos who said Wolanyk was arrested on two misdemeanors, “failing to complete the security process; violation code 7.01 and illegally recording the San Diego Airport Authority (they confiscated his iPhone); violation number 7.14 (a).” Another confirmation came from Ronald Powell, director of communications, who said Wolanyk wasn’t charged with any federal crimes, just the two misdemeanors. “The bottom line is that all our police officers did was enforce the law.” Powell also stated that there was another arrest of a woman who was allegedly illegally filming the x-ray, and TSA screening process with a video camera. The young woman’s camera was confiscated and she was given a citation and released from Harbor Police custody. TSA headquarters has told would-be airline travelers who enter an airport checkpoint process and refuse to undergo the method of inspection designated by TSA they will not be allowed to fly and can face possible charges for disrupting the airport security process. Wolanyk will appear in court on January 7, 2011 to dispute the charges with Jason Davis of Davis and Associates of Orange County by his side.
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