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Post by scpg02 on Nov 23, 2010 6:23:01 GMT
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/top/all/7306994.htmlTSA chief warns against boycott of airport scansBy RAY HENRY © 2010 The Associated Press Nov. 22, 2010, 5:27PM ATLANTA — The nation's airport security chief urged travelers not to boycott full-body scans on Wednesday — one of the busiest flying days of the year — as the Thanksgiving holiday approaches with some Americans in a foul and rebellious mood. Transportation Security Administration chief John Pistole said Monday that such delaying actions would only "tie up people who want to go home and see their loved ones." "We all wish we lived in a world where security procedures at airports weren't necessary," he said, "but that just isn't the case." He noted the alleged attempt by a Nigerian with explosives in his underwear to bring down a plane over Detroit last Christmas. There was little if any indication of a revolt Monday as passenger screening appeared to go smoothly at many major U.S. airports, with very few people declining the X-ray scan that can peer through their clothes. Those who refuse are subject to a pat-down search that includes the crotch and chest. Many travelers said that the scans and the pat-down were not much of an inconvenience, and that the stepped-up measures made them feel safer and were, in any case, unavoidable. "Whatever keeps the country safe, I just don't have a problem with," Leah Martin, 50, of Houston, said as she waited to go through security at the Atlanta airport. At Chicago's O'Hare Airport, Gehno Sanchez, a 38-year-old from San Francisco who works in marketing, said he doesn't mind the full-body scans. "I mean, they may make you feel like a criminal for a minute, but I'd rather do that than someone touching me," he said. A loosely organized Internet campaign is urging people to refuse the scans on Wednesday in what is being called National Opt-Out Day. The extra time needed to pat down people could cause a cascade of delays at dozens of major airports, including those in New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Atlanta. "Just one or two recalcitrant passengers at an airport is all it takes to cause huge delays," said Paul Ruden, a spokesman for the American Society of Travel Agents, which has warned its more than 8,000 members about delays. "It doesn't take much to mess things up anyway." At the White House, press secretary Robert Gibbs said the government is "desperately" trying to balance security and privacy and will take the public's concerns and complaints into account as it evaluates the new, more stringent boarding checks. The American Civil Liberties Union has received more than 600 complaints over three weeks from passengers who say they were subjected to humiliating pat-downs at U.S. airports, and the pace is accelerating, according to ACLU legislative counsel Christopher Calabrese. "It really drives home how invasive it is and unhappy they are," he said. Stories of alleged heavy-handed treatment by TSA agents captured people's imagination. A bladder cancer survivor from Michigan who wears a bag that collects his urine said its contents spilled on his clothing after a security agent at a Detroit airport patted him down roughly. Tom Sawyer, a 61-year-old retired special education teacher, said the Nov. 7 experience left him in tears. "I was absolutely humiliated. I couldn't even speak," he told MSNBC.com. During an appearance on CBS, the TSA's Pistole expressed "great concern over anybody who feels like they have not been treated properly or had something embarrassing" happen. A video showing a shirtless young boy resisting a pat-down at Salt Lake City's airport has become a YouTube sensation and led to demands for an investigation from Rep. Jason Chaffetz, R-Utah, an outspoken critic of TSA screening methods. The video of the unidentified boy was shot Friday by a bystander with a cell phone. The TSA said in a blog posting that nobody has to disrobe at an airport checkpoint apart from removing shoes and jackets. According to the TSA, the boy was being searched because he triggered an alarm inside a metal detector, and his father removed the youngster's shirt to speed up the screening. "That's it. No complaints were filed and the father was standing by his son for the entire procedure," said the posting by "Blogger Bob" of the TSA Blog Team. The boycott campaign was launched Nov. 8 by Brian Sodergren, who lives in Ashburn, Va., and works in the health care industry. "I just don't think the government has the right to look under people's clothes with no reasonable cause, no suspicion other than purchasing a plane ticket," he said in an interview with The Associated Press. He said he has no idea how many passengers plan to opt out, but added: "I am absolutely amazed at the response and how people have taken to it. I never would have predicted it. I think it hit a nerve." In the meantime, security lines appeared to move briskly at many airports. Frank Bell, 71, of Norfolk, Conn., said he took off his shoes and passed through a scanner at New York's Kennedy Airport — and wasn't even sure whether it was one of the full-body machines. "It was absolutely nothing," he said. "If there was something that was supposed to tell what sex I was, I wasn't aware of it."
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 24, 2010 2:01:47 GMT
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 24, 2010 6:06:12 GMT
Amen. And i noticed the "news" is trying to convince us it is all ok. First was a local report at the air port saying it was all necessary to keep us safe. Then a national report saying any delays can be attributed to protesters.
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Post by w7psk on Nov 24, 2010 19:28:56 GMT
the terrorists are winning.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 24, 2010 21:34:16 GMT
the terrorists are winning. Let's be specific, shall we? The Islamists and their shills are winning.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 25, 2010 0:03:09 GMT
the terrorists are winning. Let's be specific, shall we? The Islamists and their shills are winning. Let's be accurate, shall we? This is not the terrorists winning, nor the Islamists and their shills winning. A little calm and reason will go a long ways here. It's not time to grab the torches and pitchforks. It looks like most people are a little calmer in their thinking, though. No real problems in the airports today.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 25, 2010 0:21:36 GMT
Over here in the UK we have had ongoing terrorism since the late 1960's, however we have never allowed this to erode our basic human rights. I cannot understand why the US is going down this route and over here many airlines are saying that UK citizens are being put though unnecessary checks before flying to the US. It almost seems to be blind panic, whereas here we have alway just got on with things, which actually undermines the terrorists as what they want is a reaction. I think to balance things up all US citizens should have to have a full cavity search if they fly through european airspace. I think that if this was going to happen to your politicians within a very short timescale many of these measures would be dropped ;D I wouldn't take a narrow slice of citizenry attracted to this message board as representative of all of America, nor the stories posted by those as accurately representing what is happening. We could stand and compare point by point freedoms between where we are, and where you are, and we will find some that you win, and others that we win. That's just how it is with different systems.
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Post by jlk103144 on Nov 25, 2010 4:15:23 GMT
the terrorists are winning. Yep, and they know it too.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 25, 2010 8:58:02 GMT
The topic of the thread asked if we have had out pat down yet. Let me ask something similar: Who on this thread (besides me) has even flown since this began? Is there anyone else? If so, they sure haven't said anything about it.
This thread is a perfect example of mob mentality. (Excuse me for getting close to what I don't like with other people posting, but I'm having a problem keeping up when I feel like I'm being overwhelmed by some just posting whatever bullshit story they can find with a google search).
We have one person saturating the thread with every political charicaturization, cartoon, and blog post they can find from the internet while saying they notice how the news is trying to "convince us that it is all okay." But let's look even at the history of things that this person puts up to support the allegations of violations.
One is a story of a soldier getting nail clippers confistated while having an assault rifle. The best I can tell, the source of this story is something from twitter. Some questions that need to be asked include: Why does this guy have an assault rifle in the airport? What armory was that checked out from? Is he deploying? PCSing? going TDY? I can't think of any military movement through civilian air travel facilities that involves them having an assault rifle. So why does the person posting such things not ask such questions? Why do they just believe this at face value.
Another post from infowars (because there is a war on for your mind, you know) alleging "TSA Tactics Find Ominous Parallel in Nazi Germany" and the story is equally ridiculous. Everyone in the US knows why references are made to Nazi Germany in cases like these, and I have had discussions with this person previously over Infowars about articles "exposing" groups releasing satanists out into the world, etc.
Don't take my word for the Infowars.com stuff, or Alex Jones (who owns the site) or the kind of articles they carry. Go there yourself and see what they report on, then decide whether to trust accounts from these guys. (Actually, the article posted doesn't give an account of anything - just more of the "real truth" type of article with accusations and emotional appeals.
I'll take the news stories like the AP article by Ray Henry for what it is, but that was written on NOv 22nd. Today, Nov 25th, none of the signs of the fed up travellers were visible to me in the airports. If the protests were supposed to gum up the works, they were a flop.
We have fought wars before, and in every one of them, things change during the execution of the war. We can't just walk away from this right now. We will have to make adjustments until things are a little more calm (and they always calm down afterwards). The TSA in in a position where we have to choose whose word to take on whether or not they have stopped subsequent attacks, but it seems likely to me that they have since we haven't really had any successful attacks since 9/11. It doesn't seem reasonable that Al Qaeda or similar groups are content to just take on the military in the fields in places like Afghanistan, but they have not been successful at hitting again inside our homeland. I personally think they must be trying, though. They do not have a chance of winning militarily - the only chance they really have is to weaken the resolve, and that's not happening by keeping the bloodshed half way around the world. But changing lifestyle to deal with the possibility of attack is not a sign that "the terrorists are winning" any more than us deploying troops was a sign they were winning - it is all part of the reality of the conflict. That inconveniences people ... the level of inconvenience changes a bit according to where we live, though.
Reading through here, and reading on the internet, I just get the mental picture of the mob with torches and pitchforks off to slay the ogre in some movie. It doesn't matter whether the charges are true or not, if someone from the mob yells it, it is taken to heart as justification for going after the ogre, and it is amazing to me what is swallowed without questioning.
Reality check from my viewpoint: I have not seen any evidence of TSA abuse or assault, and I continue to fly frequently. If anyone else flies and sees something different, then please post it. Let's also stop pretending that all passengers are nice, cooperative, and truthful. (Plenty of parallel in that to every situation dealing with authority or enforcement in life - not everyone is truthful, and usually only those pissed off say anything, and very often those stories are either exaggerated or just false). I have seen passengers get upset over things ranging from being told their bag was too big for a carry-on to being upset because a smallish woman was sent down to push his wheelchair (I said these earlier). I saw first hand in those cases how stories grew to ridiculous and didn't resemble what I saw take place with my own eyes.
I expect there are some incidents just because of the size of the population of TSA and passengers passing through, but it is definitely not what is being portrayed by some (and many of those who are making a stink are just noisemakers). You'll also notice a lack of opportunity for TSA officers to say anything in response.
Like I said before, I fly about 50 weeks/year which means I clear airport security about 100 times/year. My personal experience is that it is no big deal. I think there is a chance they will find items people should not fly with, so I completely disagree with those who say it is meaningless. I don't see the ones claiming it is useless as being authorities or even informed on the situation very well. I also will submit to it for the peace of mind of the other passengers, and I don't think that is a "false" sense of security - I think it is important to them as well. If nothing else, I can see it as a matter of mutual respect with the other passengers. I also think the security processes help create a deterrent which will make for fewer things that need to be caught at screening.
When my family flies with me, I am especially glad for the security, and I still disagree if you want to call the security "false." I don't think it is perfect, but I really believe they help.
So for the ones who are upset, which of you have flown since these procedures started? Is the treatment anything like what is being put out publicly? Am I being honest in saying it's nothing like what is being portrayed?
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 25, 2010 16:01:37 GMT
I try to post interesting stuff. If you have issues with what I post, say it to me directly or post a counter argument.
I think my posts add to the board overall. They may not be hard core science and are mostly light and fluffy but I try to bring another viewpoint to some topics. Sorry if you disagree with the view and feel censorship is the better option.
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 25, 2010 16:05:07 GMT
The topic of the thread asked if we have had out pat down yet. Let me ask something similar: Who on this thread (besides me) has even flown since this began? Is there anyone else? If so, they sure haven't said anything about it. This thread is a perfect example of mob mentality. (Excuse me for getting close to what I don't like with other people posting, but I'm having a problem keeping up when I feel like I'm being overwhelmed by some just posting whatever bullshit story they can find with a google search). We have one person saturating the thread with every political charicaturization, cartoon, and blog post they can find from the internet while saying they notice how the news is trying to "convince us that it is all okay." But let's look even at the history of things that this person puts up to support the allegations of violations. One is a story of a soldier getting nail clippers confistated while having an assault rifle. The best I can tell, the source of this story is something from twitter. Some questions that need to be asked include: Why does this guy have an assault rifle in the airport? What armory was that checked out from? Is he deploying? PCSing? going TDY? I can't think of any military movement through civilian air travel facilities that involves them having an assault rifle. So why does the person posting such things not ask such questions? Why do they just believe this at face value. Another post from infowars (because there is a war on for your mind, you know) alleging "TSA Tactics Find Ominous Parallel in Nazi Germany" and the story is equally ridiculous. Everyone in the US knows why references are made to Nazi Germany in cases like these, and I have had discussions with this person previously over Infowars about articles "exposing" groups releasing satanists out into the world, etc. Don't take my word for the Infowars.com stuff, or Alex Jones (who owns the site) or the kind of articles they carry. Go there yourself and see what they report on, then decide whether to trust accounts from these guys. (Actually, the article posted doesn't give an account of anything - just more of the "real truth" type of article with accusations and emotional appeals. I'll take the news stories like the AP article by Ray Henry for what it is, but that was written on NOv 22nd. Today, Nov 25th, none of the signs of the fed up travellers were visible to me in the airports. If the protests were supposed to gum up the works, they were a flop. We have fought wars before, and in every one of them, things change during the execution of the war. We can't just walk away from this right now. We will have to make adjustments until things are a little more calm (and they always calm down afterwards). The TSA in in a position where we have to choose whose word to take on whether or not they have stopped subsequent attacks, but it seems likely to me that they have since we haven't really had any successful attacks since 9/11. It doesn't seem reasonable that Al Qaeda or similar groups are content to just take on the military in the fields in places like Afghanistan, but they have not been successful at hitting again inside our homeland. I personally think they must be trying, though. They do not have a chance of winning militarily - the only chance they really have is to weaken the resolve, and that's not happening by keeping the bloodshed half way around the world. But changing lifestyle to deal with the possibility of attack is not a sign that "the terrorists are winning" any more than us deploying troops was a sign they were winning - it is all part of the reality of the conflict. That inconveniences people ... the level of inconvenience changes a bit according to where we live, though. Reading through here, and reading on the internet, I just get the mental picture of the mob with torches and pitchforks off to slay the ogre in some movie. It doesn't matter whether the charges are true or not, if someone from the mob yells it, it is taken to heart as justification for going after the ogre, and it is amazing to me what is swallowed without questioning. Reality check from my viewpoint: I have not seen any evidence of TSA abuse or assault, and I continue to fly frequently. If anyone else flies and sees something different, then please post it. Let's also stop pretending that all passengers are nice, cooperative, and truthful. (Plenty of parallel in that to every situation dealing with authority or enforcement in life - not everyone is truthful, and usually only those pissed off say anything, and very often those stories are either exaggerated or just false). I have seen passengers get upset over things ranging from being told their bag was too big for a carry-on to being upset because a smallish woman was sent down to push his wheelchair (I said these earlier). I saw first hand in those cases how stories grew to ridiculous and didn't resemble what I saw take place with my own eyes. I expect there are some incidents just because of the size of the population of TSA and passengers passing through, but it is definitely not what is being portrayed by some (and many of those who are making a stink are just noisemakers). You'll also notice a lack of opportunity for TSA officers to say anything in response. Like I said before, I fly about 50 weeks/year which means I clear airport security about 100 times/year. My personal experience is that it is no big deal. I think there is a chance they will find items people should not fly with, so I completely disagree with those who say it is meaningless. I don't see the ones claiming it is useless as being authorities or even informed on the situation very well. I also will submit to it for the peace of mind of the other passengers, and I don't think that is a "false" sense of security - I think it is important to them as well. If nothing else, I can see it as a matter of mutual respect with the other passengers. I also think the security processes help create a deterrent which will make for fewer things that need to be caught at screening. When my family flies with me, I am especially glad for the security, and I still disagree if you want to call the security "false." I don't think it is perfect, but I really believe they help. So for the ones who are upset, which of you have flown since these procedures started? Is the treatment anything like what is being put out publicly? Am I being honest in saying it's nothing like what is being portrayed? It is not about the screenings themselves. It is about the erosion of our rights in favor of a false sense of security and a police state. If you want to be one of the sheeple, I can't stop you.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 26, 2010 19:49:23 GMT
It is not about the screenings themselves. It is about the erosion of our rights in favor of a false sense of security and a police state. If you want to be one of the sheeple, I can't stop you. LOL. I was really hoping you would use that term. I promise you, as I was writing that, after looking at the sources you posted, I was thinking that was the only thing missing to put your comments in line with some of the other comments I have been reading on the internet put forth when it becomes obvious that the person arguing doesn't have anything but emotion ... they call the people who don't agree with them "sheeple." ( I didn't think you'd really do it, though. I thought the irony would be too obvious) After all, it can't be that the other person is thinking of something different, now can it? So ironic that you put forth stories such as the one about the Naziisms of the current system, or the story of the soldier with an assault rifle checking through security, and you post them WITHOUT QUESTIONING the very obvious, glaring, in your face innacuracies, but then if we question it, we're "sheeple." Hoestly, even if I agreed with you on the issue, I would call that out just because it is embarassing. Perhaps if you would stop to question more, rather than seeking articles to confirm your belief you would not need to use words like "sheeple" in such ironic situations .
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 26, 2010 20:01:10 GMT
It is not about the screenings themselves. It is about the erosion of our rights in favor of a false sense of security and a police state. If you want to be one of the sheeple, I can't stop you. LOL. I was really hoping you would use that term. I promise you, as I was writing that, after looking at the sources you posted, I was thinking that was the only thing missing to put your comments in line with some of the other comments I have been reading on the internet put forth when it becomes obvious that the person arguing doesn't have anything but emotion ... they call the people who don't agree with them "sheeple." After all, it can't be that the other person is thinking of something different, now can it? So ironic that you put forth stories such as the one about the Naziisms of the current system, or the story of the soldier with an assault rifle checking through security, and you post them WITHOUT QUESTIONING the very obvious, glaring, in your face innacuracies, but then if we question it, we're "sheeple." Hoestly, even if I agreed with you on the issue, I would call that out just because it is embarassing. Perhaps if you would stop to question more, rather than seeking articles to confirm your belief you would not need to use words like "sheeple" in such ironic situations . I'm not arguing ANYTHING, emotional or otherwise. I posted articles. My sole objective is to give a point of view that is counter to what you get from main stream media. You don't like the point of view however and have done your diligence to marginalize everything I post without actually countering anything I have posted. If anyone is arguing from emotion, it is you. I haven't seen you post ANY counter information. Hang on to your butt, I'm going to post a lot more. I will do it as links in one post though. Wouldn't want you to accuse me of spamming. I don't seek these out, they just come my way. And yes, one will be from infowars. So what. As I said before, I'm simply posting counter to the main stream info. Nor have I commented on them. My intent is to put information and ideas out there leaving it up to the reader to decide. By the way, the soldier one was satire. I didn't feel the need to label it as such.
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Post by scpg02 on Nov 26, 2010 20:19:31 GMT
Ok posting some excerpts in one post so as not to spam the thread even though I would rather not do it this way.TSA turns off naked body scanners to avoid opt-out day protestsMike Adams NaturalNews November 25, 2010 Anticipating a nationwide grassroots surge of protests against naked body scanners and aggressive pat-downs, the TSA simply turned off its naked body scanners on Wednesday and let air travelers walk right through security checkpoints without being X-rayed or molested. All across the country, air travelers are reporting that the TSA simply deactivated the naked body scanners and let people go right through without a scan. “Backscatter scanners are off. No scan. No patdown.” reported a traveler from the Seattle airport. “Backscatter machines aren’t being used at LAX,” reported another traveler. “They’re all roped off.” www.infowars.com/tsa-turns-off-naked-body-scanners-to-avoid-opt-out-day-protests/*** Deadlier Than Scanners: TSA To Spread Flesh-Eating BacteriaPaul Joseph Watson Infowars.com November 25, 2010 Now that the TSA’s new pat down procedures include reaching inside people’s clothing and directly touching their skin and genitals, communicable diseases are set to soar, with doctors warning of a new wave of infections that will pose a greater risk to public health than any statistical probability of being a victim of terrorism. The TSA’s new pat down procedures threaten to unleash an epidemic of communicable diseases, presenting a threat more deadly than the radiation travelers will be exposed to if they pass through a naked body scanner. This will undoubtedly lead to thousands of deaths of people with weak immune systems in the long term. The controversy again highlights the fact that the body scanner and pat down procedures, through the spread of infectious diseases like flesh-eating bacteria, will kill more people than they will protect through the speculative prevention of any terror attack. www.infowars.com/deadlier-than-scanners-tsa-to-spread-flesh-eating-bacteria/ *** Menstruating woman subjected to TSA grope because panty-liner obscured her vulva on pornoscannerCory Doctorow at 11:49 PM Wednesday, Nov 24, 2010 A self-described "rule follower" went through an airport pornoscanner wearing a panty-liner (she was menstruating). Because the hygienic item obscured the screener's view of her girl thingy vulva, she was made to endure a humiliating fondling, "so invasive that I was left crying and dealing with memories that I thought had been dealt with years ago of prior sexual assaults." www.boingboing.net/2010/11/24/menstruating-woman-s.html*** The TSA and America’s Turning PointHobbes Scragged November 26, 2010 The recently-escalated battle between the American people and the TSA is far more important than it first appears. The final outcome of this argument will determine whether we still live in a nation “of the people, by the people, for the people”, or whether we have become a soft tyranny where our democratic forms of elections and representatives have been reduced to a meaningless veneer as in the old Soviet Union or Red China. The people have made their fury loudly know. The TSA’s response? Screw you! www.infowars.com/the-tsa-and-americas-turning-point/***
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 26, 2010 20:43:22 GMT
LOL. I was really hoping you would use that term. I promise you, as I was writing that, after looking at the sources you posted, I was thinking that was the only thing missing to put your comments in line with some of the other comments I have been reading on the internet put forth when it becomes obvious that the person arguing doesn't have anything but emotion ... they call the people who don't agree with them "sheeple." After all, it can't be that the other person is thinking of something different, now can it? So ironic that you put forth stories such as the one about the Naziisms of the current system, or the story of the soldier with an assault rifle checking through security, and you post them WITHOUT QUESTIONING the very obvious, glaring, in your face innacuracies, but then if we question it, we're "sheeple." Hoestly, even if I agreed with you on the issue, I would call that out just because it is embarassing. Perhaps if you would stop to question more, rather than seeking articles to confirm your belief you would not need to use words like "sheeple" in such ironic situations . I'm not arguing ANYTHING, emotional or otherwise. I posted articles. My sole objective is to give a point of view that is counter to what you get from main stream media. You don't like the point of view however and have done your diligence to marginalize everything I post without actually countering anything I have posted. If anyone is arguing from emotion, it is you. I haven't seen you post ANY counter information. Hang on to your butt, I'm going to post a lot more. I will do it as links in one post though. Wouldn't want you to accuse me of spamming. I don't seek these out, they just come my way. And yes, one will be from infowars. So what. As I said before, I'm simply posting counter to the main stream info. Nor have I commented on them. My intent is to put information and ideas out there leaving it up to the reader to decide. By the way, the soldier one was satire. I didn't feel the need to label it as such. My "counter" is experience. I see it first hand. Thus my question, has anyone else on here seen it first hand? Has anybody else on here flown since this began? I can say that the reality is nothing like what is being broadcast.
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