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Post by Acolyte on Dec 21, 2008 20:00:26 GMT
I signed on - & I'm planning on advertising it on at least 7 other blogs - I think it's worth doing. Let's see how 2500 mixed bureaucrats, administrators, secretaries and scientists of the IPCC stack up against the already impressive swell of non-believers. Now it's up to 68 pages and over 1400 posts. Hey, that's more than "the great consensus!" Someone's been cleaning things I think - it's now ... OK, that's weird - I refreshed the page about 30 minutes ago & got 1363 replies & 69 pages - just did it again & got 1443 replies & 69 pages... Does anyone else hear Twilight Zone music?
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Post by ron on Dec 21, 2008 22:26:52 GMT
Support your neighborhood pragmatist! LOL Yes, that solar plant does sound cheap compared to Seabrook, but it hasn't been built yet. There are always surprises. Amen "Seabrook was one of the nuclear plants that the so-called environmentalists used...to justify opposition to coal-fired units that some Northeast utilities planned to bring on line to displace the use of fuel oil, which was often used in plants in that region at that time. They told utilities that investing in nuclear units was a preferred alternative to constructing coal-fired plants. Then those same "environmentalist" groups turned around and stabbed Seabrook in the back by filing motion after motion, delay after delay, to drive its cost up. A bunch of liars and backstabbers, the lot of them." I don't know that it was the same environmentalists, but they were a coalition of environmentalists and NIMBYs that slowed and nearly killed Seabrook. That's my point, by the way -- you can expect each and every nuke to undergo the same and that's one major reason none have been built since by the private sector. It offers a playbook for the opposition and nothing but despair for the builder. I'm sure operating costs would be a lot less for solar plants. You'd need an army of squeegee guys, but what the heck--fight unemployment. Adding a liquid sodium cycle would push operating costs up substantially, but I still wouldn't rule it out at this stage. You don't think someone will invent the windshield wiper? Yes, let's have some of the SciAmer article. I find their estimated cost low by orders of magnitude. But let's take a peek at it. www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=a-solar-grand-planThey place a huge bet on PV and that expands the required land area by a factor of three, and also requires a technology that needs replacing every 40(?) years, maybe a bit non-pragmatic if you ask me, but it does create an industry, and hey -- who knows? Perhaps grand breakthroughs might occur in PV technology. Maybe we're missing the boat completely? How about a layer of PV somehow within a heat concentrator? Just a crazy thought -- I know PVs don't work very efficiently in the heat, but if we could split some of the photons off and keep the longer wave energies... I need to go study up on the composition of the sun's energy at ground level. Point is we don't need to have such a detailed Grand Plan, just a general direction with short term plans to power the southwest and a sure vision to power the country, and monies to fund research into the distribution backbone and a bunch of competing harvesting technologies with the dangle of big bux for the winners which has been missing from incentivizing development of solar technologies. Anyway, I know I sound like a zealot about it -- I never used to -- but with the stimulus and/or public works thing going to happen anyway I can't think of a better way to "make work". Fix our roads and bridges, build some solar power stuff, invest in some alternate power vehicle technologies (I don't know where), maybe bring some seawater to the desert for desalination and steam generation in the power cycle... sigh. I've never wanted the reins of big power in life but I'd love to be the energy tsar for a while.
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Post by ron on Dec 21, 2008 22:48:05 GMT
Naaaah, it's called "leadership" when a person with a vision takes the reins.
Hey I wouldn't go forward only with Solar, that would be silly and even if executed perfectly (hah!) likely inadequate anyway. Just likely to be a good part of the answer.
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Post by tobyglyn on Dec 22, 2008 2:42:20 GMT
Continuing the don't look up approach: "Tropics 'cooled by volcanic eruptions' December 22, 2008 - 9:49AM Volcanic eruptions have periodically cooled the tropics over at least the past 450 years by spewing out particles that girdle the world at high altitude and reflect sunlight, according to a study released on Sunday." [snip] "However, links between volcanic activity and cooler ocean surfaces weakened in the 20th century, apparently as a result of global warming from the burning of fossil fuels, the researchers say. Another study, also published online in the journal Nature Geoscience, points to a previously unrecognised potential driver of climate change. Intensive, chemical-laden agriculture could trigger the release of carbon dioxide (CO2) from river systems, Henry Wilson and Marguerite Xenopoulos of Trent University in Ontario, Canada, say." news.smh.com.au/world/tropics-cooled-by-volcanic-eruptions-20081222-738a.html
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Post by pidgey on Dec 22, 2008 3:53:54 GMT
Naaaah, it's called "leadership" when a person with a vision takes the reins. Hey I wouldn't go forward only with Solar, that would be silly and even if executed perfectly (hah!) likely inadequate anyway. Just likely to be a good part of the answer. Hitler had a vision... and his leadership skills were pretty strong...
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Post by socold on Dec 22, 2008 21:47:28 GMT
We weren't talking about any wartime or medical atrocities nor perpetrators of such. We were talking about energy policy, potential civil works projects and building solar collectors for Pete's sake. If everyone is going to (behave even worse than the AGW crowd and) make vicious ad hominem references/attacks/whatever in argument against people with whom they disagree, then civil discourse and an open exchange of ideas is doomed. But Hansen and the envirofacists are commiting fraud!
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Post by nautonnier on Dec 22, 2008 23:25:26 GMT
We weren't talking about any wartime or medical atrocities nor perpetrators of such. We were talking about energy policy, potential civil works projects and building solar collectors for Pete's sake. If everyone is going to (behave even worse than the AGW crowd and) make vicious ad hominem references/attacks/whatever in argument against people with whom they disagree, then civil discourse and an open exchange of ideas is doomed. I almost dare not jump into this due to people's sensitiveness in this area. But two points the first: Ron, I do not think that there was any comparison intended of _you_ to Hitler, I think that the post was intended to point that vision alone is not enough good motives along with vision are required. Perhaps that should be the vision should be the 'right' one. The second point that is rarely raised - and I am going to have the temerity to raise it as it should be, is that Hitler in amongst all the ranting badness - had some good ideas and vision too along with his numerous and publicized bad points. He invented the autobahn concept (well updated it from the Romans) and implemented it - a concept now copied in autostrada. autoroutes. motorwegs, motor ways and Interstates. On these autobahn's he wanted the 'peoples cars' - VolksWagens - to be driven - and they still are (with initial assistance from the British army after the war). Hitler also re-invigorated the modern Olympic era with his 1936 Olympics and the idea of running the Olympic flame from Greece to the Olympic site was Hitler's too. Good ideas and vision are not affected by someone's (in)humanity although the way they are used and the vision may be distorted. There is a tendency these days to decry everything put forward by the 'opposition' party to yours; this is a mistake as these may be good ideas. You don't have to like or admire a person's world view or actions to acknowledge that an idea/concept (s)he has is a good one. This does not mean of course that a good idea or three excuses genocide but don't add the good idea to the other good that was killed. I hope that made sense
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Post by kiwistonewall on Dec 22, 2008 23:48:17 GMT
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Post by Acolyte on Dec 23, 2008 4:49:26 GMT
[trimmed]...A man's actions cannot be separated and compartmentalized in such a manner. His actions were evil, he was an evil person and I would gladly give up my Interstates and the Olympics to have saved any of his victims. Your post here defending Hitler's legacy and not calling to task the author of such an offensive remark is noted. Um..., 'noted'?? Is there some kind of retribution being planned here? Is this to be seen as merely an expression or is there to be some result from being so 'noted'? It may not be meant as such but the language used in this context sounds threatening.
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Post by Acolyte on Dec 23, 2008 6:37:04 GMT
It wasn't meant to - if there was any ulterior motiveapart from checking to be sure you WEREN'T doing that, it was to show how sometimes words seem to mean things that weren't intended.
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Post by donmartin on Dec 23, 2008 7:01:39 GMT
Keep in mind the admonission of Machiavelli, that in order to defeat your enemy, you must become like your enemy, and sometimes, more so. Perhaps all of us unwittingly carry a heavy burden in our hearts.
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Post by Acolyte on Dec 23, 2008 10:25:58 GMT
Of course, Machiavelli might have said that just to confuse things - if people really believe you have to become like your enemy they might be more reluctant to take them on... Machiavelli didn't get his name for nothing & perhaps the quotes attributed to him have alternative purposes? *grins*
Of course, also, you might just be making a comment about a couple of us here on-site... Are you known for channelling sneaky European types don?
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Post by kiwistonewall on Dec 23, 2008 10:32:42 GMT
Not many posts from our US friends? Have they all lost power? (or time zones mean asleep or at work?) What is it like where you all are - sounds bad.
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flint
New Member
Posts: 3
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Post by flint on Dec 23, 2008 11:41:59 GMT
Well I am in Northeast Texas and it is just plain cold here. We are suppose to warm up a little today with some rain. Many of the older generation here are talking about the cold weather. I, myself, have lived here for 30 years and can't remember it being this cold, this early since the late 70's when my family first moved to this area. We shall see what the rest of winter brings us this year.
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Post by jimcripwell on Dec 23, 2008 11:51:04 GMT
Kiwi writes "What is it like where you all are - sounds bad." I am in Ottawa Canada. It is cold, there is lots of snow, which drifts in the wind. Completely normal. The skiing is good. The outside skating on our Rideau Canal will probably not start until mid-January, as the weather is not cooperating. Snow has to be cleaned off the ice, so it will freeze in the cold weather. Until the ice gets thick, we cannot use heavy equipment. Anyway, we will have a lovely white Christmas.
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