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Post by missouriboy on Mar 31, 2015 16:01:51 GMT
Can anyone reference a paper(s) or site quantifies (attempts to) the magnitude of heat transported by the oceans versus
that transported by the atmosphere? I seem to remember something somewhere that referenced a ratio of 100s to 1.
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Post by sigurdur on Mar 31, 2015 22:30:13 GMT
Missouriboy: I don't believe there is a number out there in reference to your question. Presently, there isn't enough information about currents/volumes etc to establish anything with any merit.
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Post by missouriboy on Apr 1, 2015 1:37:48 GMT
Missouriboy: I don't believe there is a number out there in reference to your question. Presently, there isn't enough information about currents/volumes etc to establish anything with any merit. I haven't had the time or sources to look ... but it makes you wonder what the models use given that the planet's surface is 79% water and that, in the absence of clouds, absorbs a greater proportion of solar radiation than practically any other surface ... not to mention its mixing. Water penetration ranges from 10s of inches in the red to perhaps 10 meters+ in the blue range of the visible spectrum. Ultra violet radiation, of which we seem to know little in terms of solar output penetrates to even greater depths. Comparatively, land absorbs very little to any depth. I think most on this board have stated the importance of the oceans in driving our climates. I must explore this further. You'd think that this would be one of the first parameters that a serious modeler would attempt to 'fix'. |
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Post by sigurdur on Apr 1, 2015 2:05:31 GMT
Missouriboy: I don't believe there is a number out there in reference to your question. Presently, there isn't enough information about currents/volumes etc to establish anything with any merit. I haven't had the time or sources to look ... but it makes you wonder what the models use given that the planet's surface is 79% water and that, in the absence of clouds, absorbs a greater proportion of solar radiation than practically any other surface ... not to mention its mixing. Water penetration ranges from 10s of inches in the red to perhaps 10 meters+ in the blue range of the visible spectrum. Ultra violet radiation, of which we seem to know little in terms of solar output penetrates to even greater depths. Comparatively, land absorbs very little to any depth. I think most on this board have stated the importance of the oceans in driving our climates. I must explore this further. You'd think that this would be one of the first parameters that a serious modeler would attempt to 'fix'. You'd think that this would be one of the first parameters that a serious modeler would attempt to 'fix'. Have to have serious modelers, not ones trying to prove AGW. In air, the only really important component that holds heat is H2O vapor. Compared to the oceans, air has diddly squat ability to hold heat. |
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Post by douglavers on Apr 2, 2015 6:20:26 GMT
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Post by missouriboy on Apr 2, 2015 6:53:21 GMT
Missouriboy: I don't believe there is a number out there in reference to your question. Presently, there isn't enough information about currents/volumes etc to establish anything with any merit. This came from a reference kindly supplied by Astromet. It was one of that articles' citations. Atlantic Ocean heat transport = 1.3 PW. I had to look it up. That is 1 quadrillion watts. This is also an excellent reference to other sources of measurements. www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/docs/2010jcli3997_2E1.pdf |
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Post by Ratty on Apr 2, 2015 10:23:29 GMT
Coming up the East coast of the US, keeping Boston warm, melting snow? |
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Post by missouriboy on Apr 2, 2015 15:32:54 GMT
Missouriboy: I don't believe there is a number out there in reference to your question. Presently, there isn't enough information about currents/volumes etc to establish anything with any merit. This came from a reference kindly supplied by Astromet. It was one of that articles' citations. Atlantic Ocean heat transport = 1.3 PW. I had to look it up. That is 1 quadrillion watts. This is also an excellent reference to other sources of measurements. www.aoml.noaa.gov/phod/docs/2010jcli3997_2E1.pdfCitations from this paper suggest that the Atlantic accounts for 70% of net global oceanic heat flux and 25% of oceanic plus atmospheric heat flux at this latitude (26 N. Latitude). Rough calculations are thus: Total Mean Atlantic heat flux = 1.3 PW Total Oceanic heat flux = 1.86 PW (Atlantic at 70%) Total Pacific / Other heat flux = 0.56 PW (simple math mate) Total heat flux (Oceans & atmos.) = 5.2 PW (Atlantic at 25%) Atmospheric heat flux = 3.34 PW (simple math mate) & thus 1.8 times the global oceans? DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE A HARD TIME SWALLOWING THIS? Who knew?? Sources of non-Atlantic data: echorock.cgd.ucar.edu/staff/trenbert/trenberth.papers/budgetCD.pdf ocean.mit.edu/~cwunsch/papersonline/ganachwunschnature.pdfWill dig out specifics. |
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Post by sigurdur on Apr 2, 2015 17:27:33 GMT
missouriboy:
On heat flux of the oceans, I think anything is a stab in the dark. We just don't know enough about the currents, thermocline placements etc. Make sense?
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Post by missouriboy on Apr 2, 2015 18:25:36 GMT
missouriboy: On heat flux of the oceans, I think anything is a stab in the dark. We just don't know enough about the currents, thermocline placements etc. Make sense? Makes sense, yes. Sometimes however, laying out the measures and opinions/analysis can focus the mind on possible mechanisms for observed effects and their interaction. Back-of-the-envelope calculations can be useful in this sense. The North Atlantic has the best array of instrumentation I believe of any area in the world. If any area can demonstrate the primary mechanics of any astrophyical-climate linkages, it should be here. And the next decade should tell much of the story. Thus, a careful consideration of the better-documented area may provide insight applicable elsewhere. Besides, they're already spending the money ... and the range of smells rising from the various piles stimulates the senses.  |
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Post by sigurdur on Apr 5, 2015 13:54:05 GMT
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Post by missouriboy on Apr 5, 2015 18:29:14 GMT
That graph is getting REALLY irritating. Don't these warmbutts ever check anything? Lowest in a thousand years my south 40! Is the proof that stupid, gerrymandered graph? A 10-year old statistician could figure that one out! |
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Post by douglavers on Apr 18, 2015 9:57:55 GMT
weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.gifThe North Atlantic Drift now seems to be petering out mid-Atlantic. Petawatts of heat are now going missing in the Arctic. Should make for an interesting ice recovery next Northern Hemisphere winter. Meanwhile, there will be snow on the hills to the East of Melbourne tomorrow, above 900 meters. They had widespread snowfall in NZ last week.
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Post by nautonnier on Apr 18, 2015 10:14:31 GMT
weather.unisys.com/surface/sst_anom.gifThe North Atlantic Drift now seems to be petering out mid-Atlantic. Petawatts of heat are now going missing in the Arctic. Should make for an interesting ice recovery next Northern Hemisphere winter. Meanwhile, there will be snow on the hills to the East of Melbourne tomorrow, above 900 meters. They had widespread snowfall in NZ last week. It looks like the North Atlantic drift is turning into the mid-Atlantic drift There always was a returning branch that turned South along the West Africa coast, but that seems to be the main branch at the moment.  This could alter a lot of things if there is some chaotic flip that has happened not stopping the North Atlantic Drift but rerouting it. |
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Post by flearider on Apr 18, 2015 20:53:38 GMT
well from thing's I've read this is how it started last time .. without that heat everything above freezes the question is will it continue and for how long .. an ice age can start in as little as 10-20 yrs and as I have said all this cold is coming from the Antarctic for the last 2-3 yrs as it has grown larger it has pushed more and more cold water into the n/h on it's melt cycle .. but this time it's going to coincide with a minimum of the sun .. conclusions non atm hopes well I hope im wrong  |
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