4th grade science champion

[sigurdur]

socold:
You forget price discovery in your analysis. As fossil fuels become more expensive to extract, other energy supplies will be developed. A capalist economy is very resilient that way. As an example:
1. I am researching using a wind turbine to produce hydrogen. With that hydrogen produced, I can then produce nh3. The current prices of nh3 are high enough to almost warrant that type of investment. If the trend continues in the price escalation, it will be feasable within a few years. By doing this, it will eliminate the need to use natural gas as a feedstock for the nh3.
2. There is research that is quit exciting right now using a blend of ethanol in diesel engines. I expect cummins, which is one of the sponsors of said research, to modify an engine to burn this type of blended fuel. The upside is the particulate matter is reduced by over 80% from the diesel fuel burnt.
3. There are uses for wind turbines. One of the uses is not to replace base generated electricity. That is a fools wish as the production is not consistent enough to provide energy for commerce. I gave an example of a use that is practical and potentially feasable.

These are just a few examples of changes that are on the horizon. All of said changes use price discovery to provide their worth.

Governments, through their past examples, are about the poorest stewards of inovation that one can find. The further away from the AGW idea one can keep them, the better for humanity as a whole.

[touko]

1. I am researching using a wind turbine to produce hydrogen. With that hydrogen produced, I can then produce nh3. (...) By doing this, it will eliminate the need to use natural gas as a feedstock for the nh3.

Sigurdur, I hope you mean a process where bacteria produce H by fermenting alternative sources of organic carbon. As far as I know, there is no known practical process to convert electricity directly to hydrogen, but sure, you'd be needing your supporting energy for whatever process you might have.

The Swedes have stolen your and Cummins' idea of an ethanol diesel engine long ago: gas2.org/2008/04/15/scanias-ethanol-diesel-engine-runs-on-biodiesel-too/

Touko

[sigurdur]

Jun 12, 2010 13:56:31 GMT @touko said:

1. I am researching using a wind turbine to produce hydrogen. With that hydrogen produced, I can then produce nh3. (...) By doing this, it will eliminate the need to use natural gas as a feedstock for the nh3.

Sigurdur, I hope you mean a process where bacteria produce H by fermenting alternative sources of organic carbon. As far as I know, there is no known practical process to convert electricity directly to hydrogen, but sure, you'd be needing your supporting energy for whatever process you might have.

The Swedes have stolen your and Cummins' idea of an ethanol diesel engine long ago: gas2.org/2008/04/15/scanias-ethanol-diesel-engine-runs-on-biodiesel-too/

Touko

Touko:
The process of converting elec to H is being done in North Dakota already. When you factor in the cost of selling output of a wind turbine to the grid system, it brings the cost down of the electricity.
Thank you for the scania link. The current research is being done on an engine that doesn't require the large compression increase to function. Forcasts of a production model are showing it to be approx 2-3 years away. What the research is showing is the engine becomes more fuel efficient. The research is not on test stands, but out in the field under real world conditions. Very promising at this time.

[touko]

The process of converting elec to H is being done in North Dakota already.

I believe you, but by what process would that be? What will the ammonia will be used for and how far is that facility?

Touko

[sigurdur]

Touko:
The ammonia is used as fertilizer. The facility would be local. I am blessed to live in an area of substained winds. If the price of nh3 continues at current levels, the process of making it locally as a co-operative becomes feasable. Most of the infrastructure is already in place to store the nh3.

[touko]

Sigurdur, thank you I think I found your project (on my own, I might add as well). It's still a research project, not a finished product, or was so in 2008.

www.basinelectric.com/Electricity/Generation/Wind/Wind-to-Hydrogen_Project/index.html

Wind-to-hydrogen research project continues
September 2008


The Wind-to-Hydrogen pilot project, located one mile south of Minot, ND, at North Dakota State University's (NDSU) Central Research Extension Center, has been operating for some time, but continues to experience a number of operational problems, says Randy Bush, Basin Electric's distributed resource coordinator.

I found no mention of any conversion to ammonia, but:

The hydrogen is being used in three General Motors Flexfuel trucks converted to run on 100% hydrogen (in addition to gasoline and/or E85) and a Caterpillar Challenger tractor, made to run on a 10% hydrogen fuel blend.

I wonder if you would have amortized the cost of these "inverse fuel cells" into your cost analysis? These items don't come cheap and so won't any ammonia produced. Since you have been investigating, you will know the initial cost, will you not?

Touko

[sigurdur]

Jun 12, 2010 15:26:52 GMT @touko said:

Sigurdur, thank you I think I found your project (on my own, I might add as well). It's still a research project, not a finished product, or was so in 2008.

www.basinelectric.com/Electricity/Generation/Wind/Wind-to-Hydrogen_Project/index.html

Wind-to-hydrogen research project continues
September 2008


The Wind-to-Hydrogen pilot project, located one mile south of Minot, ND, at North Dakota State University's (NDSU) Central Research Extension Center, has been operating for some time, but continues to experience a number of operational problems, says Randy Bush, Basin Electric's distributed resource coordinator.

I found no mention of any conversion to ammonia, but:

The hydrogen is being used in three General Motors Flexfuel trucks converted to run on 100% hydrogen (in addition to gasoline and/or E85) and a Caterpillar Challenger tractor, made to run on a 10% hydrogen fuel blend.

I wonder if you would have amortized the cost of these "inverse fuel cells" into your cost analysis? These items don't come cheap and so won't any ammonia produced. Since you have been investigating, you will know the initial cost, will you not?

Touko

Touko:
To make nh3, for starters, you don't use fuel cells. Basin Elec is working with the EERC at UND to refine the process of producing H. It is currently about ready for mass production.

They are also working on the fuel cells. Exciting times..

The cost of nh3 has almost reached the point where production locally is feasable. As I said, the infrastructure for storage is already in place.

They are also doing research on adding H to diesel fuel. This has produced more hurdles, as the initial engines developed brittle problems.

There is a lot of research going on in my area that looks promising. It has not reached mass production as of yet, but is getting closer.

Thank you for your interest.

[poitsplace]

Jun 12, 2010 13:56:31 GMT @touko said:

Sigurdur, I hope you mean a process where bacteria produce H by fermenting alternative sources of organic carbon. As far as I know, there is no known practical process to convert electricity directly to hydrogen, but sure, you'd be needing your supporting energy for whatever process you might have.
Touko

So...no electrolysis in your world?

[touko]

The cost of nh3 has almost reached the point where production locally is feasable. As I said, the infrastructure for storage is already in place.

Yet you don't want to quote anything on the amount of the initial investment although you said you have investigated into this? That WILL matter, a lot. Also, there seems to be no ammonia production, although you said there was and that was supposedly your main point of interest? It seemed as if you were thinking of a small-scale home NH3 prodcuction? And yes, fuel cells are not related to ammonia, and indeed I did not say they would be.

Touko

[sigurdur]

Touko:
Of course there is no ammonia production at that facility. The reason for that facility is to produce H. Once you have H, it is easy to produce ammonia.
Not small scale per se. Community scale...notice I said co-operative?
Did you also note I said the storage is already in place?
Yes, I have researched the costs. The cost of a ton of nh3 is getting close to the cost of amortizing a production facillity.

Once again, thank you for your interest.

[touko]

Of course there is no ammonia production at that facility.

But Sigurdur, as a quick flashback, you said there is, in response to my asking:


The ammonia is used as fertilizer. The facility would be local.


Yes, I have researched the costs.

Community scale...notice I said co-operative?



In what capacity and for what purpose did you do your said research? Are you employed by the said cooperative? Why is it that you seem to be unable you state any concrete sum as to the initial costs? People won't be running blind into these considerable investments, I'm sure. Coops usually run on a small capital.

Touko

[sigurdur]

touko:
I said there is H production at that facility.....from the H you can easily produce nh3.
I am a farmer. Not employed by Basin Electric.
Why are you so interested in the cost? Are you thinking now of doing the same?

[touko]

Ok, here's the setup: you're a farmer. The price of fertilizers is skyrocketing worldwide. You think you could start milling your own. By employing the famous American "we can do it" principle you extrapolate from a research project that is local to you, forget a few things such as the initial investment costs, and picture yourself as the proud owner of your own lucrative business. Damn the small print -- here comes Sigurdur's farm!

Touko

[sigurdur]

touko:
It upsets you that "we can do it" works?......interesting.
And.......yep.....that "we can do it" principle will work.

[stranger]

Sigurdur does indeed live in a place of winds. I was on ND 5 between Botteneau and Bowbells a few years ago, and after a half an hour I finally met a truck. I said howdy on channel 19, got a reply, and as he faded out of sight I mentioned I had been fighting a 55 mph, 90 Kpm headwind ever since I left Botteneau. The truck driver said he had been fighting the same headwind ever since Williston.

And a back of envelope calculation of the future price of anhydrous ammonia shows that the cost of the plant will probably not be a factor, given the low cost and short supply line for wind energy. But Sigurdur's situation is somewhat exceptional in that wind energy would be used at or almost at the point of generation.

Stranger