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Post by Andrew on Sept 24, 2015 21:04:09 GMT
Not more then the 1st mm at a time no Well....Having said that ir is the largest spectrum.....educate me... If the first mm is warmed by IR then the second mm can be warmed by IR emitted by the first layer.
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Post by acidohm on Sept 24, 2015 21:16:36 GMT
No....It doesn't work like that, you've just created perpetual energy....
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 24, 2015 21:18:04 GMT
Not more then the 1st mm at a time no Well....Having said that ir is the largest spectrum.....educate me... If the first mm is warmed by IR then the second mm can be warmed by IR emitted by the first layer. Generally doesn't work that way Andrew. The evaporation of the warmed water happens faster than the water can transfer any heat. Water is funny that way. Also, IR penetration of water is 3 microns, not millimeters. Huge huge difference.
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Post by acidohm on Sept 24, 2015 21:28:03 GMT
Didn't know the exact figure so erred on the side of caution
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Post by Andrew on Sept 24, 2015 21:31:23 GMT
If the first mm is warmed by IR then the second mm can be warmed by IR emitted by the first layer. Generally doesn't work that way Andrew. The evaporation of the warmed water happens faster than the water can transfer any heat. Water is funny that way. Also, IR penetration of water is 3 microns, not millimeters. Huge huge difference. For the evaporation rate to increase the water has to be heated to a higher temperature or there is some other process going on to cause that evaporation when irradiated. You are talking about the evaporation of the warmed water. Ocean water is quite cold and will not evaporate strongly just by having the surface temperature raised even 10 degrees.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 24, 2015 21:33:11 GMT
No....It doesn't work like that, you've just created perpetual energy.... Not at all. The water is irradiated, becomes warmer and begins emitting more IR than it was before. Some goes up and some goes down.
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Post by acidohm on Sept 24, 2015 21:34:30 GMT
But not forever or it would forever be heating up things?? Where does it end??
The driest place in the world....tell me where that is and then talk about evaporation.
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Post by Ratty on Sept 24, 2015 21:35:19 GMT
[ Snip ]...but, ya know, i like to appear impartial.... ... and you do. Me too WRT WUWT .... if I'm arguing a case with anyone, I would hope to find a reference that wasn't an overtly sceptical site.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 24, 2015 21:35:34 GMT
Didn't know the exact figure so erred on the side of caution Your figure for low energy IR sounds about right. High energy IR would be significantly greater. It does not make much difference though as far as I can see if the energy is strongly absorbed it must cause significant warming and this will mean that warming will be transferred to the lower layers of water.
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Post by acidohm on Sept 24, 2015 21:40:59 GMT
Andrew...I love you, believe me, as I love all other people. But I can't do this with ya mate. I kinda want to but I really don't have the time.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 24, 2015 21:41:31 GMT
But not forever or it would forever be heating up things?? Where does it end?? The upper layers are most strongly heating the layers beneath them with a weakening effect as you go down.
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Post by acidohm on Sept 24, 2015 21:41:52 GMT
[ Snip ]...but, ya know, i like to appear impartial.... ... and you do. Me too WRT WUWT .... if I'm arguing a case with anyone, I would hope to find a reference that wasn't an overtly sceptical site. Too right Ratty! But we can let ourselves off sometimes!!
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Post by nonentropic on Sept 24, 2015 22:07:08 GMT
Andrew you need to study partial pressures and the drive from liquid water to gaseous water. Its about humidity or the saturation of the atmosphere with water. What speeds the transfer from the surface of the oceans to the atmosphere is temperature, the saturation of the atmosphere or portion of the partial pressure already occupied by water molecules, strong wind speeds the process, blow a wet hand and the evaporation cools it. The radiation that is absorbed by the surface of the ocean only replace the latent energy lost to the surface of the water. the latent heat lost from the ocean is now held by the gaseous water. If this more saturated air were to rise and condense as rain the energy is again liberated by the latent energy release but at a much higher altitude. the energy is now on its way to where it came from, the universe.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 24, 2015 22:19:41 GMT
What speeds the transfer from the surface of the oceans to the atmosphere is temperature Yes. We agree. Other things being equal, solar energy cannot cause greater evaporation unless the surface becomes warmer. I was answering this: >>Generally doesn't work that way Andrew. The evaporation of the warmed water happens faster than the water can transfer any heat. Nautonnier perhaps you can clarify something for me? Is there a theory going around that IR cannot warm the oceans and therefore there is a major hole in current climate thinking?
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Post by icefisher on Sept 25, 2015 1:00:23 GMT
Generally doesn't work that way Andrew. The evaporation of the warmed water happens faster than the water can transfer any heat. Water is funny that way. Also, IR penetration of water is 3 microns, not millimeters. Huge huge difference. For the evaporation rate to increase the water has to be heated to a higher temperature or there is some other process going on to cause that evaporation when irradiated. You are talking about the evaporation of the warmed water. Ocean water is quite cold and will not evaporate strongly just by having the surface temperature raised even 10 degrees. That is complete gibberish Andrew. Evaporation is controlled by the surface temperature of the ocean not the temperature of the water below the surface and of course you raise the surface temperature 10 degrees and you will get a lot of evaporation and none of it will come from below the surface either. You need some equations to support that gibberish, but you won't do that because you will find nothing to support those ridiculous claims Bottom line is if you raise the temperature of the water surface or the temperature of the air evaporation will occur. A warmer water surface evaporates more readily and warmer air above the surface will induce evaporation. This is relationship similar to Henry's law were liquids convert to gas as they are warmed. Cool water favors condensation of gases in contact to it. Cool air tends to be dryer air as it can hold less water vapor. I live on the ocean and I can pretty much tell what the water temperature is by monitoring my air thermometer. What you see is the average diurnal temperature of the air at my external sensor is approximately what the water surface temperature is. And what I mean by the water temperature its what I am going to experience if I go swimming as the cold water even on relatively calm days is a few feet under the surface, with mixing occurring from the constant swell and breezes blowing over it. On a dead calm day with no swell or a day with an offshore breeze are the days my air thermometer will fool me about the water temperature. I can do tell the temperature quite reliably because the wind blows onshore probably more than 90%. Its not perfect because you can get some cold or warm water pockets near shore so it becomes more of an averaging of water temperatures for a few miles offshore. The bottom line of this Andrew is evaporation is the primary means of moving heat out of the ocean. If the wind is blowing offshore all bets are off, but thats when you see dry warm air traveling over cool water and there you have a tremendous evaporation rate that does not convect so you get almost zero haze and the temperature impact of the water on the air is moving away from my home instead of towards it. Evidence that Sigurdur's comment about evaporation being virtually the entire process is upheld by the various global energy budgets. Most have "thermals" contributing about 20% and transpiration and evaporation contributing 80%. Since water makes up 80% of the surface it could be the case that evaporation prevents any warming from radiation at all. And of course we know you have no support for you unsupported claims above.
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