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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 16:22:20 GMT
"does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms." This is simply not true. Its only true if freezing occurs at precisely the melting point, Obviously ice forms at a lower temperature than when ice does not form.
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Post by numerouno on Sept 1, 2013 17:17:40 GMT
I do have to thank both you and Numerouno Andrew. I had thought for awhile that my understanding was screwed up, but you both have confirmed that I understood the process completely. That was refreshing. Thank you both. Sigurdur, your phase change energy is only revealed AFTER EVERYTHING HAS BEEN ICED UP! You don't see everything iced up in your field, as far as I can tell. Therefore, any heat you will see on your fields will come from the ORDINARY HEAT CONTENT of the WATER YOU PUMP onto the fields! You are still misunderstanding things, and apparently nothing will make you understand this right.
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Post by magellan on Sept 1, 2013 17:32:11 GMT
I do have to thank both you and Numerouno Andrew. I had thought for awhile that my understanding was screwed up, but you both have confirmed that I understood the process completely. That was refreshing. Thank you both. Sigurdur, your phase change energy is only revealed AFTER EVERYTHING HAS BEEN ICED UP! You don't see everything iced up in your field, as far as I can tell. Therefore, any heat you will see on your fields will come from the ORDINARY HEAT CONTENT of the WATER YOU PUMP onto the fields! You are still misunderstanding things, and apparently nothing will make you understand this right. No, Sigurdur understands perfectly well.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 17:48:04 GMT
I do have to thank both you and Numerouno Andrew. I had thought for awhile that my understanding was screwed up, but you both have confirmed that I understood the process completely. That was refreshing. Thank you both. Sigurdur, your phase change energy is only revealed AFTER EVERYTHING HAS BEEN ICED UP! You don't see everything iced up in your field, as far as I can tell. Therefore, any heat you will see on your fields will come from the ORDINARY HEAT CONTENT of the WATER YOU PUMP onto the fields! You are still misunderstanding things, and apparently nothing will make you understand this right. numerouno: That is what you don't understand. YES.....I SEE everything iced up! Ice on the ground, the plants.....everything. And let me tell ya.....that ice makes a man's heart beat slower, as by having it I KNOW that my spuds have not froze. And this can happen just from heavy DEW formation. I have observed it....too many times for comfort....but observe it I have. When the outside air temp is 28F...I shudder. It takes a walk in the field to feel safe. No ice......and I am screwed. Ice....happy days are here again. I don't have water to irrigate, and must rely on mother nature doing things correctly. Sometimes she fails, sometimes she doesn't. The first time it happened, observing the ice......I was not sure what the outcome would be. IN fact....water conducts temp well. Another item that is observed that goes against what one would think. A wet spud hill that freezes saves the tuber. There is enough latent heat released that a tuber can be in the ice field and not have damage. Dry soil?.......screwed big time. Maybe I don't understand it.....but I sure have observed it. That heat HAS to come from somewhere, and the only place I can put a finger on that heat is the release of the latent heat when water freezes. Cause the soil temp and the air temp sure are not handing any heat over.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 18:20:43 GMT
apparently nothing will make you understand this right. The internet promised so much and yet it appears it is going to make the biggest contribution to returning humanity to the dark ages since god knows when. Endlessly there is somebody with a keyboard who cannot be reasoned with. The lights have already gone out at the NSIDC, supposedly one of the most prestigious ice study centres on Earth.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 1, 2013 18:26:54 GMT
"does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms." This is simply not true. Its only true if freezing occurs at precisely the melting point, Obviously ice forms at a lower temperature than when ice does not form. The amount of cooling (super or otherwise) required to freeze ice equals the latent heat of fusion, Iceskater. If it amounts to enough to observe on a thermometer for a given measurable mass of liquid solely depends upon whether cooling is able to proceed to a large enough degree without the initiation of freezing to become defined as "super". You artificially claim warming is only occurring when its not too small for you to observe on a thermometer for a mass of liquid. Simple mathematics will tell you that a cooling object that stops cooling (delays cooling) gives off total more heat (by every engineering tool in existence) than an unfreezing object that is allowed to cool without any delay. That heat by the laws of thermodynamics is "out of the object" and "in the environment". It can't warm a warmer object but it can warm a cooler object and for the warmer object it will delay its cooling so that warmer object will stay warmer than it it were allowed to cool normally. Supercooling is when water continues to cool as much as an unfreezing object (i.e. the delay is not occurring) then the heat of fusion is transfered first into the frozen ice which ends up warmer than the water; then its able to warm the environment. So supercooling is in effect only a delay of the heating that occurrs when ice delays its cooling via the heat of fusion. Surely you can wrap your mind around this.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 18:33:46 GMT
Obviously ice forms at a lower temperature than when ice does not form. The amount of cooling (super or otherwise) required to freeze ice equals the latent heat of fusion, Iceskater. If it amounts to enough to observe on a thermometer for a given measurable mass of liquid solely depends upon whether cooling is able to proceed to a large enough degree without the initiation of freezing to become defined as "super". You artificially claim warming is only occurring when its not too small for you to observe on a thermometer for a mass of liquid. Simple mathematics will tell you that a cooling object that stops cooling (delays cooling) gives off total more heat (by every engineering tool in existence) than an unfreezing object that is allowed to cool without any delay. That heat by definition is "out of the object" and "in the environment". Supercooling is when water continues to cool as much as an unfreezing object (i.e. the delay is not occurring) then the heat of fusion is transfered first into the frozen ice which ends up warmer than the water; then its able to warm the environment. So supercooling is in effect only a delay of the heating that occurrs when ice delays its cooling via the heat of fusion. Surely you can wrap your mind around this. Water that is not quite at the freezing point will heat water that is supercooled or has begun freezing What aspect of that simple reality is beyond your ability to understand? The topic is so simple but totally beyond you. When freezing begins less heat is available to enable the imaginary warming of the atmosphere that suddenly begins mysteriously happening every year according to the morons of science
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Post by magellan on Sept 1, 2013 18:45:54 GMT
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Post by magellan on Sept 1, 2013 18:49:16 GMT
The amount of cooling (super or otherwise) required to freeze ice equals the latent heat of fusion, Iceskater. If it amounts to enough to observe on a thermometer for a given measurable mass of liquid solely depends upon whether cooling is able to proceed to a large enough degree without the initiation of freezing to become defined as "super". You artificially claim warming is only occurring when its not too small for you to observe on a thermometer for a mass of liquid. Simple mathematics will tell you that a cooling object that stops cooling (delays cooling) gives off total more heat (by every engineering tool in existence) than an unfreezing object that is allowed to cool without any delay. That heat by definition is "out of the object" and "in the environment". Supercooling is when water continues to cool as much as an unfreezing object (i.e. the delay is not occurring) then the heat of fusion is transfered first into the frozen ice which ends up warmer than the water; then its able to warm the environment. So supercooling is in effect only a delay of the heating that occurrs when ice delays its cooling via the heat of fusion. Surely you can wrap your mind around this. Water that is not quite at the freezing point will heat water that is supercooled or has begun freezing What aspect of that simple reality is beyond your ability to understand? The topic is so simple but totally beyond you. When freezing begins less heat is available to enable the imaginary warming of the atmosphere that suddenly begins mysteriously happening every year according to the morons of science Now it's "or". ROFL That statement is still discombobulated, but it surely is funny how your arguments evolve over time. Make up your mind. Anyway, I lied. This is my last post. Time to dismount Andrew.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 18:58:03 GMT
Mine as well, and it is a firm no more posts.
I do think it is a matter of semantics that we are discussing.
Maybe.........
Ok....done.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 19:03:49 GMT
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 19:06:23 GMT
I do think it is a matter of semantics that we are discussing.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 19:10:28 GMT
The reason the atmosphere was warm all started with the formation of ice, and the rapid formation of such.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 19:22:58 GMT
The latent heat exits the water/ice at that transition point but the exit of the latent heat does not change the temperature of the water/ice. However, it does change the temperature of the air.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 1, 2013 20:28:50 GMT
the child is stomping his foot and having a tantrum.
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