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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 5:19:03 GMT
Magellan Come on man. Supercooling offers zero protection for a plant that needs to be kept warm to avoid being super cooled. Numerouno was right and is still right, and cannot be made wrong by absolutely totally irrelevant examples of processes that have no connection to 0C ice stuck on the side of fruit trees. There you go again, arguing with farmers who use water spraying every year to protect their plants from freezing. Weather conditions such as wind and excessive cold can cause failure, but you simply ignored three videos explaining the process including Icefisher's video and now post pictures of what, ice damaged plants? The topic was Phase change/latent heat solarcycle24com.proboards.com/thread/2128/phase-change-latent-heatYou said there was no such thing as heat of fusion of water or ice. Then of course started back pedaling with special case pleading when you realized your argument was 100% wrong. Numo again said: No! Latent heat can never be used for any real-life heating or cooling purpose under no circumstances.
So, explain how a hand warmer made from salt, water, vinegar and sodium acetate (a food additive Numo says is "exotic") can warm the hands by freezing other than through the release of latent heat. Both of you guys said it isn't possible to heat anything with latent heat. In fact you said there is no such thing as heat of fusion of water or ice, when anyone can locate the formula quite easily. Again, a 7-12 grade school science class experiment: www.geosociety.org/educate/LessonPlans/LatentHeat.pdf No matter who says what, you must always make it appear they are wrong and you are riding the high horse. Your very first post said nautonnier was "all muddled up". You guys will continue arguing just on principle, e.g. never admit being wrong. Please think about what you are doing and saying. My goal post was to show that Icefisher was wrong to talk about heat spikes in the Arctic caused by freezing water >>There you go again, arguing with farmers who use water spraying every year to protect their plants from freezing. Weather conditions such as wind and excessive cold can cause failure, but you simply ignored three videos explaining the process including Icefisher's video and now post pictures of what, ice damaged plants? It was never suggested the farmers were wasting their time. Those are pictures of 0C ice, that is saving plants from being damaged.The issue at hand was the correct scientific explanation. Obviously Numerouno, Nonentropic and myself were right, and obviously Serreze Meier Icefisher Magellan Nautonnier Sigurdur and the scientists at the crop protection centres were wrong. >>You guys will continue arguing just on principle, e.g. never admit being wrong. You must know by now you were wrong! Surely? Then again nothing surprises me on this forum Other than special circumstances, that are not typical, there is no such thing as the heat of fusion of water, which is why it is called the latent heat of fusion of water. Supercooling is an irrelevant distraction from the ability of ice at 0C to protect plants from being damaged by freezing temperatures below 0C, where supercooling would destroy the plants! >>So, explain how a hand warmer made from salt, water, vinegar and sodium acetate (a food additive Numo says is "exotic") can warm the hands by freezing other than through the release of latent heat. Both of you guys said it isn't possible to heat anything with latent heat The words 'latent heat of fusion' means there is no new heating involved and no new transfers of energy from one hotter object to a colder object upon fusion. Latent heat of fusion can never ever provide an extra source of heat. By definition supercooled water is unusual. Therefore we would say 'the heat of fusion of super cooled water', and the words 'the latent heat of supercooled water' would have no proper meaning because there is clearly a new heat observed on fusion and it could not be latent or hidden.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 13:48:05 GMT
First off, there is no right or wrong here.
1. When you freeze water, the drop in temperature stops while the freezing takes place. 2. That energy comes from somewhere. There is no magic involved. 3. Latent heat is shown in formulas. 4. Real world applications show that something saves orange groves, veg fields etc. 5. It must be magical, as to save these there HAS to be a source of energy.
The latent heat saves the crops. The way it is measured is that the crops are saved. It works. It stops the cooling, allowing the plants to use their self defense mechanism to survive.
You just can't make up energy. IF you figure out how to do that you will become very rich and very famous.
I don't see that happening in anyone's future.
Latent heat is invisible until it is expressed. And the phase change expresses that energy. It is actually pretty easy to understand.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 15:10:58 GMT
First off, there is no right or wrong here. 1. When you freeze water, the drop in temperature stops while the freezing takes place. 2. That energy comes from somewhere. There is no magic involved. 3. Latent heat is shown in formulas. 4. Real world applications show that something saves orange groves, veg fields etc. 5. It must be magical, as to save these there HAS to be a source of energy. The latent heat saves the crops. The way it is measured is that the crops are saved. It works. It stops the cooling, allowing the plants to use their self defense mechanism to survive. You just can't make up energy. IF you figure out how to do that you will become very rich and very famous. I don't see that happening in anyone's future. Latent heat is invisible until it is expressed. And the phase change expresses that energy. It is actually pretty easy to understand. There is a right and wrong. 1. It is wrong to attempt to ridicule people who are not disputing the plants are saved and latent heat of fusion is involved. 2. It is wrong to attempt to ridicule people who are not claiming magic is involved. Please focus on whatever it is you want to say without being so abusive. You icefisher and Magellan have all claimed that freezing water heats things more than water can heat things prior to freezing and your answers always involve latent heat of fusion 'releasing' something in a manner that you say can heat things to be hotter. Numerouno and myself have pointed out that the latent heat energy is an internal energy transfer that does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms. That said there is the special case of supercooling where supercooled water on delicate plants will kill them and there is no body of evidence suggesting that supercooling of ocean water has any role to play in this discussion when ice freezes at sea at around -1.8C and we are talking about water freezing rapidly en masse over a huge geographical area rather than some isolated incidence that might happen somewhere. The right thing is to recognise that Numerouno was right and Icefisher was wrong, and if you dont agree with that assessment to provide intelligent defences of your own position rather than endlessly ridiculing people who give detailed reasons why you are wrong.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 15:32:26 GMT
Andrew: "Numerouno and myself have pointed out that the latent heat energy is an internal energy transfer that does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms."
And that is where you are wrong.
AFTER the ice forms, the latent heat is gone. BEFORE the ice forms, the latent heat is not expressed.
The PHASE CHANGE expresses the LATENT heat.
The Latent heat is present, hidden, UP TO THE TIME, of the phase change. It is then expressed.
We all agree that latent heat is "hidden heat". Can we all agree that the expression of the latent heat during phase change also occurs?
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 15:36:24 GMT
Also:
I am not being abusive. The physics of this phase change is so well known, the results of that phase change are also well known.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 15:37:46 GMT
I do have to thank both you and Numerouno Andrew. I had thought for awhile that my understanding was screwed up, but you both have confirmed that I understood the process completely.
That was refreshing.
Thank you both.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 15:51:06 GMT
Also: I am not being abusive. The physics of this phase change is so well known, the results of that phase change are also well known. Then why all of the crap about magic??
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 15:52:07 GMT
I do have to thank both you and Numerouno Andrew. I had thought for awhile that my understanding was screwed up, but you both have confirmed that I understood the process completely. That was refreshing. Thank you both. If you agree with Serreze or the frost protection scientists we have heard from so far you are totally confused
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 15:53:16 GMT
I do have to thank both you and Numerouno Andrew. I had thought for awhile that my understanding was screwed up, but you both have confirmed that I understood the process completely. That was refreshing. Thank you both. Why all of the crap about new sources of energy?
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 15:55:31 GMT
>>You just can't make up energy. IF you figure out how to do that you will become very rich and very famous.
>>I don't see that happening in anyone's future.
This is exactly the kind of abusive stupidity we get from Magellan and Icefisher who endlessly go on about magic microwaves when somebody attempts to reason with them about the GHE
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 16:02:00 GMT
Andrew: You seem to deny that the phase change, the release of the latent heat, somehow doesn't work.
Physics shows it does work, real world examples shows it does work.
Observation trumps. And observation is widespread and well known.
That is my point. You seem to want to argue that point.
As far as Serreze, I haven't followed that part of the discussion.
I just know that water/ice will remain at 0C, even tho outside air temps are well below 0C. That is what saves plants from having damage. 26F and no freezing damage relies on the release of the latent heat during phase change. Water is an excellent conductor of temperature.
To keep the water/ice at zero requires energy. It is provided by the phase change.
Without that expression of energy, the ice would continue to cool.
Note how thick the ice gets on plants? And yet the plants don't freeze? That energy comes from the latent heat expressed.
It does NOT come from the little bit of temp of the water applied.
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Post by sigurdur on Sept 1, 2013 16:03:45 GMT
And I am outta this discussion. I prefer to rely on simple physics and observations of the application of such.
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Post by icefisher on Sept 1, 2013 16:06:28 GMT
There is a right and wrong. 1. It is wrong to attempt to ridicule people who are not disputing the plants are saved and latent heat of fusion is involved. 2. It is wrong to attempt to ridicule people who are not claiming magic is involved. Please focus on whatever it is you want to say without being so abusive. You icefisher and Magellan have all claimed that freezing water heats things more than water can heat things prior to freezing and your answers always involve latent heat of fusion 'releasing' something in a manner that you say can heat things to be hotter. Numerouno and myself have pointed out that the latent heat energy is an internal energy transfer that does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms. You have been sideways on this topic exactly like you were on the blanket over a dead body does not heat the dead body. When you say "heat" that is different than "warm". Heat can maintain a temperature, warm a temperature, or even allow a temperature to cool if the heating is insufficient. You acknowledge a "delay" that means "more heat" than otherwise. Further you have completely failed to acknowledge the science put in front of you that the exothermic abilities of freezing of creating bursts of energy. The bursts of energy appear to only be limited by the melting point. So any supercooled water, which most water supercools to some minor extent apparently, can be warmed by freezing. And yes you can extract useable heat from anything. But if you want to warm something that already is warmer you need to apply work. You have seen the videos of ice being formed that is warmer than the water it was formed from. And this occurred despite the fact that the water was maintained in a vial in a colder environment than the temperature of ice. This proves the exothermic capabilities (dynamite is exothermic) of freezing. Yet you sit here still in complete denial. Saying "does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms." Water and an environment at -2C (as was the DMI figures) can be warmed up to 0C. You are completely stuck on the idea that ice has to form and melt at 0C. Yet is proven everyday its not. I gave you lab experiments showing what you say is not true. I gave you photography of energy bursting out of ice crystals. I gave you links to showing hot its established by condensation showing that water vapor supercools in the atmosphere. You started out denying the crop protection maintaining all it was doing was insulating. You supported Numno's suggestions that the heat is not manifested externally and was used to expand the ice. Numno has since backed away from that and the two of you are now trying to draw another artificial line. "does not have any existance outside of the water and ice and is unable to warm anything outside of the ice and water more than the water could do before ice forms." This is simply not true. Its only true if freezing occurs at precisely the melting point, but how can that be true? You have indecisiveness here that can't exist Iceskater. H20 cannot both freeze and melt at the same temperature. The laws of conduction prohibit it, even if you cannot see the fallacy of that notion in the raw.
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 16:16:48 GMT
Andrew: You seem to deny that the phase change, the release of the latent heat, somehow doesn't work. Wrong! I have repeatedly just said that nobody is denying the latent heat is involved in saving the plants!!! The issue is the correct scientific explanation where when people attempt to reason with you start talking free energy and f**king magic
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Post by Andrew on Sept 1, 2013 16:19:09 GMT
And I am outta this discussion. I prefer to rely on simple physics and observations of the application of such. Crap! you are the piece of shit that started talking about f**king magic thingy
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