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Post by kiwistonewall on Nov 24, 2009 23:37:21 GMT
Some say that Skeptics trash the environment.
I say the opposite is just as likely.
Which best explains your attitude? ;D
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 25, 2009 0:07:45 GMT
I live in a 2500sqft house on 50 acres of forest that I share (mostly peaceably ) with a wide variety of forest critters. If I "trashed" the environment I'd be trashing my own life style. But I do use what I need, including cutting down the occasional tree, shooting or otherwise disposing of animals that "don't play well with humans" , and harvest a deer or 2 every year. I burn what trash we produce that's burnable, compost veggie matter for the garden, and throw left over meat and bones out in the woods. "My" carnivores seem to appreciate it. I also have numerous gas burning tools/equipment and 2 people movers, and I'm not afraid to use them. And I am an AGW sceptic.
Imho, trying to control the outdoors as if it had a built in thermostat borders on paranoia. It is what it is.
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Post by trbixler on Nov 25, 2009 0:18:07 GMT
A skeptic. Was raised "waste not want not" I try to solve any problem in the most efficient way. Civil engineers have brought the major heath revolution to mankind, we used to call them sewer engineers, but clean water and disposal of waste are the results of civil engineering. Green science is not science but politicization of Margret Meads lack of science. Look around you talking about the issue are politicos, doing something about the problems are engineers. China, India and Korea are currently outstripping the U.S. 10 to 1 in engineers. This will tell sooner than later. Trashing the environment has always been wrong! Historically often through ignorance. Today why take math, chem or physics when you can go to law school and litigate the solution with unbounded ignorance. Maybe become a climate soothsayer and lie,cheat and defraud your community. Maybe become a member of government and do the same.
Forgot to mention in 1971 I bought a 4 cyl car, but then decided the commute was too long. I then made a commitment to live within 4 miles of work. It was a good decision about 38 years ago. Yes I have even gone for the hydronic heated floors and the mylar foam mylar rafter insulation. By the way the heating costs are very minimal with the separate floor boiler. Tankless water heater, pilotless stove. I redid the yard to take very little water. Of course no air conditioner as breeze of ocean is all that is needed. Double paned low E glass with argon windows. Stainless roof with skylights on my latest addition (yes I have a laser cutter at the shop). Probably still more to be done as I kind of like LED lighting. We manufacture a board that we pulse width modulate with a processor, I kind of think that I might adapt it for home use.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 25, 2009 1:42:59 GMT
I am a skeptic, have been for 15 years. Before that I was lukewarm to AGW, but as I read the science and did the math things weren't adding up.
I farm......shouldn't have to say more. I use noooo more fuel than necessary....costs money and the margin just isn't that good to waste. My 3/4 ton pickup gets over 18mpg, drive a car that gets 34 mpg, have the thermostat set at 67 in winter, 80 in summer. Use cfl lighting......do my best to live with as low an energy consuming print as I can because that is the right thing to do.
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Post by cnlmustard on Nov 25, 2009 2:15:10 GMT
Kiwistonewall, You left out an option choice in your poll: --- I need more details to answer your poll ---
Not to be too "Clintonesque" here, but please define the word "trash".
Curiousgeorge would be regarded by many tree-huggers to be a "trasher". Why he even burns things outside! If I'm a warmer, then I would believe he alone is causing the water in the lake, only four city blocks from my house, to rise drastically every time a storm approaches.
Now I'm a sceptic, but do I dump my used motor oil in that same lake? Do I pipe my excrement directly into it as some think? F&%k no!! But I also beieve Curiousgeorge is not a polluter either.
Specifically Kiwistonewall, how does one "care for the Environment"?
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Post by kiwistonewall on Nov 25, 2009 2:19:38 GMT
This is (of course ) a frivolous poll, simply to point out how ridiculous the claims of the alarmists that unless you go along with them you are destroying the planet!
Alarmists are (by nature) rather gullible (=not a skeptic) and they (those I know personally) seldom intelligently apply green principles to their daily lives. They tend to be ivory towered idealists, wanting the government to do everything for them. They tend not to be the roll up the sleeves types.
This is a generalization from my personal experience. But true. Admittedly, I am a city dweller, and don't mix with the back to nature types. But the back yard gardeners in my neighbourhood are skeptics.
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Post by nautonnier on Nov 25, 2009 3:18:56 GMT
Interesting idea I have solar heating and solar powered ventilation. Air conditioning is set to kick in at 85F and heating at 65F. There is no need to pollute or use energy unnecessarily. Although it does help to live in Florida I do commute from FL to VA, WA and UK - amongst other destinations. but then a full aircraft returns around 80mpg per passenger seat mile, modern 737/800s return better than 120 mpg per passenger. So despite the taxes air travel is greener (and safer) than driving a Prius and apart from airports does not need ground infrastructure maintenance as required by cars and trains.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 25, 2009 3:29:44 GMT
Kiwistonewall, You left out an option choice in your poll: --- I need more details to answer your poll --- Not to be too "Clintonesque" here, but please define the word "trash". Curiousgeorge would be regarded by many tree-huggers to be a "trasher". Why he even burns things outside! If I'm a warmer, then I would believe he alone is causing the water in the lake, only four city blocks from my house, to rise drastically every time a storm approaches. Now I'm a sceptic, but do I dump my used motor oil in that same lake? Do I pipe my excrement directly into it as some think? F&%k no!! But I also beieve Curiousgeorge is not a polluter either. Specifically Kiwistonewall, how does one "care for the Environment"? Thank you I think I have a pretty equitable relationship with the environment - at least my particular piece of it. On the "save the planet" side of things, I also refuse to buy "disposable" furniture (think Walmart/Ikea) or other things that will likely have to be replaced in a couple years if I can possibly avoid it, and I'm much too old to worry about fads & fashion in clothes, cars or anything else. In fact most of our furniture is well over 100 years old, or I've made it myself out of those trees I mentioned. I take care of what I have and make it last as long as possible. Makes me proud that the mass production/cheap junk marketing people hate me.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 25, 2009 3:35:09 GMT
Kiwistonewall, You left out an option choice in your poll: --- I need more details to answer your poll --- Not to be too "Clintonesque" here, but please define the word "trash". Curiousgeorge would be regarded by many tree-huggers to be a "trasher". Why he even burns things outside! If I'm a warmer, then I would believe he alone is causing the water in the lake, only four city blocks from my house, to rise drastically every time a storm approaches. Now I'm a sceptic, but do I dump my used motor oil in that same lake? Do I pipe my excrement directly into it as some think? F&%k no!! But I also beieve Curiousgeorge is not a polluter either. Specifically Kiwistonewall, how does one "care for the Environment"? Thank you I think I have a pretty equitable relationship with the environment - at least my particular piece of it. On the "save the planet" side of things, I also refuse to buy "disposable" furniture (think Walmart/Ikea) or other things that will likely have to be replaced in a couple years if I can possibly avoid it, and I'm much too old to worry about fads & fashion in clothes, cars or anything else. In fact most of our furniture is well over 100 years old, or I've made it myself out of those trees I mentioned. I take care of what I have and make it last as long as possible. Makes me proud that the mass production/cheap junk marketing people hate me. HUH? Are you my brother? You sound just like me. The shirts I wear in the winter are Pendeltons that I bought 16 years ago now. I buy my work clothes at the goodwill store.....jeans for 2 bucks that someone else thinks are too faded or something. Also, my work shirts there for 1 buck. Good enough for me.....and my pickup that gets 18mpg only has 395,000 miles on it as of tonight. I too....am a poor consumer. Books are my weakness..have several thousand of them.
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Post by curiousgeorge on Nov 25, 2009 3:51:28 GMT
Thank you I think I have a pretty equitable relationship with the environment - at least my particular piece of it. On the "save the planet" side of things, I also refuse to buy "disposable" furniture (think Walmart/Ikea) or other things that will likely have to be replaced in a couple years if I can possibly avoid it, and I'm much too old to worry about fads & fashion in clothes, cars or anything else. In fact most of our furniture is well over 100 years old, or I've made it myself out of those trees I mentioned. I take care of what I have and make it last as long as possible. Makes me proud that the mass production/cheap junk marketing people hate me. HUH? Are you my brother? You sound just like me. The shirts I wear in the winter are Pendeltons that I bought 16 years ago now. I buy my work clothes at the goodwill store.....jeans for 2 bucks that someone else thinks are too faded or something. Also, my work shirts there for 1 buck. Good enough for me.....and my pickup that gets 18mpg only has 395,000 miles on it as of tonight. I too....am a poor consumer. Books are my weakness..have several thousand of them. Probably not a brother, but maybe a cousin. I have relatives in Rapid City and other parts of the frozen north. I have socks that are older than some of the greenies I know. ;D But I also still have a couple of $1k suits and $50 ties that I wore as a corporate slave before I retired. Only wear 'em to funerals these days.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 25, 2009 4:22:59 GMT
I'm skeptical of almost everything when i can see a political motive behind it. I am definitely skeptical of AGW.
I grew up on a farm. I won't go through the full story of how I got from there to here, but while growing up, we definitely learned to take care of what we had, but we also learned to use it for our needs. I'm sure some of my current neighbors think farmers are trashing the environment by cultivating, but I bet they don't compain about their bellies being full.
I live in the city now, but I HAVE to get out of the city sometimes to keep my sanity. I love the natural beauty, and don't "trash" it - at least not so far as I think about it. I taught my kids the same. I love fishing in the bay or the ocean, camping in the mountains, or just hiking, and we can do that without trashing our environment.
I think this is the part you are asking about: I really love innovation. I'm all for alternative energy sources, and put my energy behind development of the same when it makes sense. But it has to be realistic. For example: Are those windmills on the hills in California really giving us a return on our investment? From what I understand, the answer is "no." So let's be realistic ... if they are, and we just need a better grid, then let's turn our innovation toward that, but if they are not, then let's turn our energy to a better energy source (I'm still dissatisfied with the discussion on this ... I'd like to know a little more). Same thing for the idea of the turbines in the San Francisco bay.
Our night time temperatures here this time of year are just about 50 degrees fahrenheit, so we still have not turned on the heat this fall at our house. I can put on a sweater, or another blanket at night (or just stay close to my wife - that's not at all unpleasant.) But where I grew up, you NEED a heater at night this time of year. So it's what makes sense. I guess by not using the heater, I'm being green conscious (doubly so since green is the color of our money).
So that's probably the most ambiguous answer yet. I don't think I trash the environment. I am all for new energy sources, but let's develop them instead of pretending they already exist. And I'm conscientious about my surroundings ... all the while wishing a few of my environmentalist neighbors would clean it up when their dogs shit on our walkways ... THEY are trashing MY environment.
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Post by itsthesunstupid on Nov 25, 2009 4:26:20 GMT
I was born in a U.S. national park and spent the early years of my life living in Park Service housing in the western U.S. Even when my father was transferred to regional offices in big cities all of our vactions were spent exploring the great natural wonders of America (cheap vacations and Park Service perks).
We recycle, walk to close destinations, keep the heat as low as comfortable and live a fairly frugal urban lifestyle. We live in an arid climate and thus conserve water by desert-scaping our yard. We enjoy nature and do our best to respect it.
That said, I believe in freedom and liberty and I'm not about to sit around while Watermelon environmentalists attempt to dictate lifestyle and make decisions about things that should be my choice in the name of saving the earth from make believe threats.
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Post by aj1983 on Nov 25, 2009 13:49:14 GMT
It's good to hear you all care for the environment. I've been many times in the US and I was really shocked by the carelessness of many people there. Complete furniture sets, refrigerators, cars etc could be found every 100 m in (non protected) nature areas (together with the commonly found ammo and shooting holes). All along the highway it was full of litter. People throwing bags, cans and litter out of their cars while driving. It's crazy!
You won't find that as much here in NL, because rules are strict and there is not much space to litter anymore. People seemed to care about the environment, but that has started to change in recent years.
Now, because of "climategate" many people (millions) here are agressively demanding a stop on ALL environmental protection regulations and all research which is somehow related to it (~all natural sciences). They say it has all been a lie (that man influences/pollutes the environment), that the government is using these lies for taxes, and people are calling for a boycot on all green/sustainable energy, and actually personally changing back to oil/coal based energy, stopping with the separation of trash (glass/paper/compost etc), and choosing cars which are very much gas inefficient. I see this happening in more countries.
I use to call this large group the anti-environmental group (popular rightwing politics) and they are "skeptic" about everything concerning the environment and even more so of course about any ("liberal") politics associated with it. They are "skeptical" about all research (they believe it is only elitist lies), and want to stop "wasting" money on it.
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Post by sigurdur on Nov 25, 2009 13:57:10 GMT
It's good to hear you all care for the environment. I've been many times in the US and I was really shocked by the carelessness of many people there. Complete furniture sets, refrigerators, cars etc could be found every 100 m in (non protected) nature areas (together with the commonly found ammo and shooting holes). All along the highway it was full of litter. People throwing bags, cans and litter out of their cars while driving. It's crazy! You won't find that as much here in NL, because rules are strict and there is not much space to litter anymore. People seemed to care about the environment, but that has started to change in recent years. Now, because of "climategate" many people (millions) here are agressively demanding a stop on ALL environmental protection regulations and all research which is somehow related to it (~all natural sciences). They say it has all been a lie (that man influences/pollutes the environment), that the government is using these lies for taxes, and people are calling for a boycot on all green/sustainable energy, and actually personally changing back to oil/coal based energy, stopping with the separation of trash (glass/paper/compost etc), and choosing cars which are very much gas inefficient. I see this happening in more countries. I use to call this large group the anti-environmental group (popular rightwing politics) and they are "skeptic" about everything concerning the environment and even more so of course about any ("liberal") politics associated with it. They are "skeptical" about all research (they believe it is only elitist lies), and want to stop "wasting" money on it. aj1983: That is my greatest fear in all of this, that the research will be de-funded. I do think long term cool heads will prevail. The cru breach shows how poor the methodoly of a lot of the arguements pointing to AGW have been. Example is the level of co2. It was much higher in the early 1800's than today, yet you don't hear about that. That in and off itself disproves the AGW theory. The climate IS changing, when it stops changing we are in deep do do as then something realllllllllly strange would be happening. We DO NEED research to understand better why it is changing. The AGW hypothosis has had center stage too long, so if nothing else, at least the research dolllars will explore other avenues.
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Post by trbixler on Nov 25, 2009 14:11:11 GMT
I do not see government as the answer, they have consistently fouled everything they touch. I would recommend to start the idea of conservation in your own family. Conservation is taught in the scouts. Conservation is preached from the pulpit. To look to government as the solution is absurd. If anything encourage engineering, and not the social agenda type. Above all get involved, speak your voice, do something yourself.
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