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Post by steve on Nov 25, 2009 14:19:08 GMT
You don't here about that because it is utterly and completely untrue.
Some "sceptics" advocate policies that will trash the environment. For example, McKitrick lobbies for reductions in pollution control despite the fact that we have such controls in part due to the massive death toll of London smogs in the 1960s. Apparently, as long as a poison isn't strong enough to kill us at a level above statistical variability and uncertainty, it is ok to emit it, as restricting its emissions would be an assault on our freedom and liberty.
PS. I "trash" the environment despite keeping the thermostat low, limiting waste, composting, using CFLs, having very low spending on consumer goods, living close to work, helping my tenants reduce their fuel bills.
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Post by woodstove on Nov 25, 2009 14:52:29 GMT
It's good to hear you all care for the environment. I've been many times in the US and I was really shocked by the carelessness of many people there. Complete furniture sets, refrigerators, cars etc could be found every 100 m in (non protected) nature areas (together with the commonly found ammo and shooting holes). All along the highway it was full of litter. People throwing bags, cans and litter out of their cars while driving. It's crazy! You won't find that as much here in NL, because rules are strict and there is not much space to litter anymore. People seemed to care about the environment, but that has started to change in recent years. Now, because of "climategate" many people (millions) here are agressively demanding a stop on ALL environmental protection regulations and all research which is somehow related to it (~all natural sciences). They say it has all been a lie (that man influences/pollutes the environment), that the government is using these lies for taxes, and people are calling for a boycot on all green/sustainable energy, and actually personally changing back to oil/coal based energy, stopping with the separation of trash (glass/paper/compost etc), and choosing cars which are very much gas inefficient. I see this happening in more countries. I use to call this large group the anti-environmental group (popular rightwing politics) and they are "skeptic" about everything concerning the environment and even more so of course about any ("liberal") politics associated with it. They are "skeptical" about all research (they believe it is only elitist lies), and want to stop "wasting" money on it. Generally speaking, AJ, it is the poor and uneducated who do the most littering, in the United States and elsewhere. Although your memories of my country sound depressing, I am quite sure you that you did not see very much of my beautiful homeland. It's basically analogous to driving through the most squalid parts of Mexico City and concluding that all of Mexico is a dump. (The overwhelming majority of the country is beautiful.) If you return to the United States at any point, try expanding your horizons a little bit. If you can't find raw, stirring, natural beauty, then truly the problem lies with you. We're a far less densely populated realm than Europe, as exemplified by the fact that France and Texas are about the same size, with France's population being more than double that of Texas. Your description of people's reactions to ClimateGate sound fabricated, in all honesty. Do you have any links to opinion pieces in the Netherlands making the kinds of statements that you are attributing to unnamed anti-environmentalists around you? Any links? I don't know how many tons of garbage I have cleaned up during the course of my life. (There are people who have picked up more than me, and there are people who have picked up less.) I have also advocated, as a writer, environmentally sound policy since I was a child. As a New York City dweller (where I moved for graduate school and stayed), I didn't buy my first car until I was 32 years old. It cost my girlfriend (now wife) and me $400 dollars, and it carried us and our surfboards all over the East Coast. Thank God for the internal-combustion engine! At this point in time, I actually consider it to be the cleanest alternative for automobile power. The massive batteries in both hybrids and electric cars pose severe environmental hazards just a few miles down the road, temporally speaking. Among the things I find most upsetting about AGW is the fact that it has distracted at least one human generation from particulate and chemical pollution. As the junk science gets revealed for what it is, hopefully people will focus on ways to diminish the release of mercury and other carcinogens into the environment. If the United States Department of Energy, a major funder of CRU, would instead spend money on assisting the Chinese with smokestack-scrubbing technology I know that I would sleep more easily at night. By the way, when legitimate alternative energy sources are developed, they won't need an assist from government. Do you think that the promise of trillions of dollars/euros in profit does not suffice to spur research? We'll get there, but we're not there yet. Finally, you're not stuck in a major metropolis by any chance, AJ? I know that when I lived in New York City I was convinced that "Nature is dead." By the time I had spent a couple of years avidly surfing, I knew better.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 25, 2009 19:47:26 GMT
It's good to hear you all care for the environment. I've been many times in the US and I was really shocked by the carelessness of many people there. Complete furniture sets, refrigerators, cars etc could be found every 100 m in (non protected) nature areas (together with the commonly found ammo and shooting holes). All along the highway it was full of litter. People throwing bags, cans and litter out of their cars while driving. It's crazy! You won't find that as much here in NL, because rules are strict and there is not much space to litter anymore. People seemed to care about the environment, but that has started to change in recent years. Now, because of "climategate" many people (millions) here are agressively demanding a stop on ALL environmental protection regulations and all research which is somehow related to it (~all natural sciences). They say it has all been a lie (that man influences/pollutes the environment), that the government is using these lies for taxes, and people are calling for a boycot on all green/sustainable energy, and actually personally changing back to oil/coal based energy, stopping with the separation of trash (glass/paper/compost etc), and choosing cars which are very much gas inefficient. I see this happening in more countries. I use to call this large group the anti-environmental group (popular rightwing politics) and they are "skeptic" about everything concerning the environment and even more so of course about any ("liberal") politics associated with it. They are "skeptical" about all research (they believe it is only elitist lies), and want to stop "wasting" money on it. I really have to ask: Where exactly did you visit? Not only do I live in the US, I travel through quite a bit of it for work (maybe I'm trashing the environment by travelling?), and have also lived outside the US and travelled outside the US for work ... the US that I see is one of the most beautiful, and well preserved countries I have ever visited. I may be able to find one or two spots where there are refrigerators or something like that, but mostly in very poor areas, and even there it is very rare by my experience. The statement you are making about the trashing of the US seems to me to fit much better with a political statement, and one that all too often goes unchallenged because it fits nicely with the political leaning of the person hearing it. Following it up with "You won't find that so much here ... " seems to make it more of a nationalistic political statement. Of course, if that's what you hear or say in your domicile, then I wouldn't expect anyone to challenge it. Let me give you a tiny sample of some of the non-protected areas that I see commonly. I challenge you to find full furniture sets, refrigerators, cars, or disposed bags of garbage in these areas. Of course, this is only a tiny sample of places I regularly go: public.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pB1aombO1uFTRtHxH9Oy-7Wh9kmzTDzhsXpZyCP5spunHDjkGT6yBMCgLyiQr-W5TC0pcR3ibmhbuJIwAB4UaAg/DSC01653.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pH4zvZzITpBL2TPi_OYO0wnG57NUhtRM2HaL7Ipv1yFcZCXy-6Oo_fyY-FN8q5PYBzCIVPzJs0BYnKEnnUuzcgA/DSC01162.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pzNQtebwaG7QoPlGWkt_JHw0ot6TYUqeTJzZLVkrDKD4SLF00AHngGYS9i06w8lumGlb8iPzLlruItDwMTGrI6Q/DSC01167.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pPHB7HDF53imMnq4AP430BG2oBmTyMxRMC3Q_82tMU1_CLNS6dyQygdVU2iYwYJ13qounurU00JgSShip-2lleQ/DSC01166.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1ps1ON3mcgm_OvtMVTEM-q_EefDqeboqnnB3K0ft6gBjm2xokvpeMJFbtBw8pguGnusvORkjWISOb9NATcJlaFBw/SNC00115.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pWeRMNReljjawCT9K0yA9MlumGRUKcun2MLSrNJlSyh2AMB6vo0u5K4ua5CYBGTUuW9TOJVB_d05sr98RPC8YKQ/DSC01542.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pF-bK2V0LcurUPf6XiHnKXZvD7Vx3LiEmNKcUsJ299RFXzc2els2EEVYPstHbLGyWkLy9HfJ5Gi5EeBBIByQvMg/DSC01552.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pESNi9LHdhl3mmQ0OmtpWBDuFgXW0fgkfKOWxxwC-_xLAXw3OJRCkpVexuJjrfAiylX3EAMNhJbMGgl_Re6MfBA/DSC01613.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p6346qf0nTBV9nv4zziWq_fwCvOLLoiw9MDqB2oPKqdHHi-XW-FrVWeGb4wkMS9rfzWqmMaV3THu7W1Y6oGCjhw/DSC01634.jpgpublic.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pUt8B9Hxa_aJ7xC9VnOJXWKUqgXJaJhjHBMO-FPSUIIWVcQw9sdZiETSax4wo7MKRWKe4y9gC3xE4NLVpOXyNig/DSC01173.jpgc4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/17/l_abd9df38f9d54c79982a13b98f29241f.jpg (Power lines, yes ... it is a hydro-electric plant. But trash?) c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/59/l_e9e840c0768a47198abe2534dcc055cb.jpgc2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/9/l_f717ba828c834798806795f09c35ed71.jpg (They're noisy, but not in a protected area ... but I love seeing them, and the other animals like sea Otters which still occupy this area among people, but still a "nature area") c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/48/l_2c706b9429064c4d90e8b8aeac9934e0.jpg (the dirtiest thing you'll find here is pot smoke, and that includes the area around the beaches as well) c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/58/l_357c1c09413c48a29bb3315e09da4acc.jpg (And this is even one of the poorer areas ... still ... no trash. Not here, and not in the nature areas that surround it.) c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/34/l_44db79693a264cd4ac1c1cfec877d028.jpgc3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/79/l_950ea780a8064c4ca90b9bdca4c8900e.jpg (See any trash along this hiway? Funny, neither did I. It's not protected, but I'd say it's a pretty natural stretch of road, wouldn't you?) c2.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/90/l_77ccaf10e88b4254837757b48db58b3d.jpg (No, it's not protected, and it's not very deep. It's just a turnout on the side of the highway. It would be the perfect place to dump a refrigerator, but I didn't see any there, and this area IS poor ... and I would call this a nature area.) z6l4gg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pHyuR-9vw7HPU7zinWYYQOg9TWsSryHJDyHRbs97UYEDQ6spDZFyGy9dKhYD4Uu0fH2GDaNlZoFC04_zX7mWiuArKCRzY88QF/DSC01078.jpg (Typical residential neighborhood for this area ... hmm ... don't see any trash ... of course, you might say it's not a "nature area.") z6l4gg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pqG8Jj8p8eZz-a0bd4xGPyt8ZOAE55M8pU4MNMHubMoQEeMobqP_tzoT-ZagRwGahyKRfIJmTwIvXHA2FyKpkFyah_YiOZYJe/DSC01086.jpg (hmm ... maybe you can pick something out on this one because there is some construction going on on the other side of that fence ... doesn't look too bad for a construction site, though. does it?) z6l4gg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pM62oXVrI_asSaKzAOQND64WZfzx9lbGsXf9n49BIShh_lV0fs48Eq3TRiz6pp_U0CgU6KAFtwsH4htvL1smiwZpK7fY9PGWi/DSC01089.jpg (no, it's not a park. This is all residential, just a natural area of the residential neighborhood - something not all that uncommon in this area.) z6l4gg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pTg3mT9SywDRFeRj1tl6BqMrHr7HZKS-mcXnC71b0ofoo-yNpafHA2W5grWkggGEk9Hw4XRm-fZlAolHxZVPWdSddVh9S6Baw/DSC01092.jpg (Okay, not a nature area, really, just residential) I think my point is pretty well shown, though, don't you? I'll admit, those photos are all from Colorodo westward. But I grew up east of Colorado, and I have photos from that area as well that I can share. Do you think I need to do that to show that Americans aren't just throwing our full furniture sets, refrigerators, and bags of trash wherever is convenient? (I really wish you had given me an excuse to post pictures of the "protected nature areas" that I visit. Yosemite, Yellowstone, Sierra National forest, Crater Lake, mendenhall Glacier, Glacier bay, Olympic National Park, Bandelier National Monument ... WOW!)
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Post by aj1983 on Nov 25, 2009 20:19:59 GMT
www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5412867/__Cramer_zwijgt_over_gehackte_mails__.htmlThis is from the biggest newspaper in the Netherlands (but not the best...) There you can find some replies (under "reageer!") of people who state this (in dutch...). However, you can find many more in any article about (nature)science or the environment on this website. To all the people in the USA, my apologies, I see I have been a bit too harsh in my statements about pollution in the US. I've seen many areas of pollution near Panama City, Florida and in the deserts (I40) in parts of Arizona. I've lived in Panama city for 15 months in 1993/1994 and in Oklahoma for half a year in 2006, and twice three months in 2007 and 2009 for study and storm chasing. I've travelled all over the US, from California to Florida and from southern Texas to Yellowstone national park in Wyoming. Many places are superb, very beautiful and natural, and the national and state parks are well protected and kept. That's why I kept coming back to the US (not to mention the friendly and helpful people). Outside those areas many places are also natural and beautiful, but closer to some(!) busy residential areas or roads/highways (in some states more than others) there is a lot of pollution, of a kind that I have never seen in the Netherlands, even though we are much much more densely populated (16.4 million people on 13000 square miles). Nature is not all dead at all, but you can measure human pollutants all over the world, and some of them are really bad for humans and all life on earth, so we should take care.
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Post by dwerth on Nov 25, 2009 20:29:23 GMT
The worst place I have ever been, when it comes to random trash in the general area, for work / fun was Israel. Unfortunately, I seem to have deleted / lost all my photos from the year I spent working there. Found this out last night, argh!
I lived in a city called Ashdod which is the main port for Israel, and worked in a town called Qiryat Gat, which is quite a bit inland from there. Each city had its own level of dirt / polution, with the industrial town of Qiryat Gat being vastly more poluted. However, when you go to the high tech portions of Qiryat Gat, where companies like HP , Numonyx, or Intel are, their campuses look eerily like a campus from the states which has been transported to a completely different world.
This is not to say that the US does not have its own problems, it is just that, looking at other places, it really isn't that bad here. This is not to excuse us from not trying to reduce the amount of polution / waste that we all produce.
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Post by stevenotsteve on Nov 25, 2009 23:23:36 GMT
aj1983 Now, because of "climategate" many people (millions) here are agressively demanding a stop on ALL environmental protection regulations and all research which is somehow related to it (~all natural sciences). They say it has all been a lie
There is an easy fix for this. Just come clean that CO2 was a lie and everyone can get back to stopping real pollution. The longer they hang on to the biggest lie in history the worse this will become. The alarmists have caused all of the backlash I'm afraid, and it is going to get a whole load worse when the sheeple wake up.
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Post by stevenotsteve on Nov 25, 2009 23:31:48 GMT
steve, we have such controls in part due to the massive death toll of London smogs in the 1960s.
Oh well steve, there goes all the loony sulphur/particulate geo-engineering nonsensical AGW BS. Glad we both agree on that one, or are you after the increasing death toll and population control AGW faction?
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Post by steve on Nov 26, 2009 9:25:56 GMT
I think you'll find that *most* climate scientists are wary of many geoengineering solutions, and *extremely* wary of the sulphate injection one.
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Post by aj1983 on Nov 26, 2009 13:15:38 GMT
aj1983 Now, because of "climategate" many people (millions) here are agressively demanding a stop on ALL environmental protection regulations and all research which is somehow related to it (~all natural sciences). They say it has all been a lie There is an easy fix for this. Just come clean that CO2 was a lie and everyone can get back to stopping real pollution. The longer they hang on to the biggest lie in history the worse this will become. The alarmists have caused all of the backlash I'm afraid, and it is going to get a whole load worse when the sheeple wake up. mm, it's not as easy as that. They also don't believe in ozone reduction caused by man, in acid rain, in the destruction of rainforests, in the extinction of species (not even in species in or near our own country). They don't believe in anything which has to do with man and a negative influence on the environment (or ourselves). Most importantly, they distrust and or hate government (including employees), liberal, science, muslims, islam, sometimes christians too, and roughly everything they don't understand. (There are of course several levels in how strong they do this, but for environmental/climate science and muslims the group is largest and very rapidly growing) @shl1234 Thanks for the pictures, they are indeed very beautiful.
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 26, 2009 16:35:32 GMT
aj, I think once again you are a little off balance in your perception of the other side of the political spectrum. If I'm right, then what you are experiencing about them is much the same that they are experiencing about your side. The political pendulum swings back and forth. It's interesting that it never really stops in the middle. One side goes too far and that is exaggerated by the other side's perceptions and the reaction gains momentum until it swings too far the other direction. I think the pendulum is going to swing the other direction on the environmental movement. I don't think my opinion in it is relevant, really ... I don't have any control over it.
Back to the trash ... again, I think your perception is exaggerated. I don't know much about Florida - I've only been there twice in my life. I grew up in Oklahoma, and have driven I-40 all the way through Arizona several times.
Something I think you can see in either place is abandoned homesites. There are not that many, but there are a few you can see from the road. In Northeastern Oklahoma, these sites tend to decay and get destroyed by the environment if you will, in short order. In Arizona, things don't decay or get overgrown so quickly, so they probably stand for much longer.
The explanation for this is not quite what I think you are driving at. Oklahoma is two Choctaw words that mean "Land of the Red People." Like the name implies, Oklahoma was a place for the Indian Tribes to be removed to beginning with the Cherokees and the Trail of Tears in 1838. White men did not really begin settling in Oklahoma until the 1880s. Most of the people my age who grew up in Oklahoma are part Native American (I'm 1/4 Cherokee. My Adopted son is 1/2 Shoshone ... ).
The white people who settled in different parts of Oklahoma were usually farmers, or in the cities, it was the oil men. The Dutch, Germans, and several other ethnic groups made large farming communities in NE Oklahoma. When I was young, this area was largely ranches, dairies, and wheat fields. But the family farm can't compete anymore (and that is good for food prices). So as the kids grew up and moved away, often these places were left, or sold. The ones that were sold were often made into rural housing areas, but curiously, the original house was often not torn down - it was left to overgrow until it fell - I don't know why that was.
Also, there were people who came in and settled, but died without heirs. Such a place existed behind our family's farm. By the time I left home, it was so re-naturalized that the only thing you could find there was the mortarless rock fence, and that only if you knew what you were looking for/at.
Arizona is another state that was mostly Native American with a few hearty white folks trying to settle there. I don't know Arizona's history as well as Oklahoma's, but I suspect that many of those ghost towns or abandoned homes you can see there were Native Americans, or reclusive white people who either left no heirs, or whose heirs didn't want that reclusive lifestyle, so there are a few abandoned towns or homesites along the way. I see that, yes, but certainly not trashing the way you described. Unlike Oklahoma, it doesn't seem that these places are sold and housing built there (I can understand why ... I wouldn't want to live in the desert like that, but others may love it).
Even in the Central valley of California, I saw some abandoned houses when I lived there in the 80's. But in any of those places, I have to say I don't see the trashing the way you describe.
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Post by aj1983 on Nov 26, 2009 23:47:00 GMT
Perception is very much based on what you are used to... I see the US differently than you can as a US citicizen. But please don't get me wrong, I really love OK (and much of the US), so much that I have seriously considered living there (it would be easier for me to get a nice job too). The Dutch society and the Netherlands also have its up and downsides. It is very busy, and although we drive much smaller and more economical cars, the air still tends to be a bit less fresh than in the US. I'm also familiar with OK's history, but thanks . Go Sooners! AJ
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Post by slh1234 on Nov 27, 2009 21:22:38 GMT
Perception is very much based on what you are used to... I see the US differently than you can as a US citicizen. But please don't get me wrong, I really love OK (and much of the US), so much that I have seriously considered living there (it would be easier for me to get a nice job too). The Dutch society and the Netherlands also have its up and downsides. It is very busy, and although we drive much smaller and more economical cars, the air still tends to be a bit less fresh than in the US. I'm also familiar with OK's history, but thanks . Go Sooners! AJ Yes, I am a Sooner Fan (and a Sooner) But I have to ask ... if you see the US differently than I can as a citizen, then does it all come back to nationalism? Is it possible that my views are also valid? (I ask this because of an attitude I often run into where anything "american" is seen as wrong, or at least flawed. I'd like to know what your take is on it when we run into differences of opinions that you see as based on nationalism.)
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jimp
New Member
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Post by jimp on Nov 29, 2009 1:29:19 GMT
I believe that AGW is an economic/political issue and has nothing to do with the environment.
When I run into an "environmentalist" they usually try to convince me that I am wrong, but normally leave confused. While I do not consider myself to be an environmentalist, I find that I do a lot more to keep the earth clean then all I have ever met.
1. I drive a CNG car. It emits CO2 at the rate of a gasoline car that gets over 55 MPG.
2. My house is super insulated and my heating and cooling bills are always lower than most. And no I do not keep my thermostat at 85 F in the summer, I do like 65 F in the winter, but that's for my comfort.
3. I have been using CF lights for over a decade, but resent being told that I have to use CF lights.
4. I own 40 acres of marginal farm land that I have replanted in native trees, over 10,000 over the last 20 years, more than half did not become deer food.
5 We collect and treat all of our own water and waste.
6. We do not have a trash service, all metals, glass and plastics are recycled, garbage is used and the small amount of paper is usually burned in the fireplace when we want a fire. I don't get any newspapers and most of our bills are paperless. (Yes I do like a good fire in the 80% efficient fireplace heater on occasion)
7. Finally, before retirement I was a combustion engineer at the local utility. As part of my job I reduced CO2 and NOx. I have personally been responsible for the reduction of 100,000 's tons of both. Most I have met work at a job that has a negative impact on the environment. If they use electricity then I helped them be cleaner. If they were off the grid then they had me beat on this issue, I never met an "environmentalist" that was off the grid.
So No I Do Not Trash The Environment but they usually Trash the environment and I am tired of it (don't give me any of the BS about carbon offset to make you feel better).
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Post by aj1983 on Dec 2, 2009 1:10:53 GMT
Of course your views are valid, just as much as mine. It's just that your perception is based on your experiences, values etc. Mine are probably a bit different. It's just what we (I lived in Florida with my parents and brothers, and in OK one time with five and 2 times with one other Dutch student), being from the Netherlands, noticed when we were in the US. We also noticed other things that we thought were weird, just because they were different from what we were used to. Even stranger was the fact that when we came back, we kept on comparing the Netherlands with the US, and had to get adjusted to living there again. In my perception, now also based on the time I spent in the US, some things in the Netherlands were weird. Everything seemed small and crowded, and the people less helpful and friendly at first contact.
Back to the US and trash, it's not bad, but it can be improved (like, uhh, everywhere...).
We consider the US as a country where nationalism is quite strong, but I think the Dutch have a strange habit of denying our own nationalism. We never say we are proud of the Netherlands, and will criticize it very much, but actually we love it very much in a strange way. If you don't get it, don't worry, it's just weird.
We are however very much pro-USA, only during the Bush administration this was temporarily a bit less. I also like the US very much (it has its pros and cons, just like our country and most other countries), so I don't think my views are based very much on nationalism.
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Post by slh1234 on Dec 2, 2009 2:41:15 GMT
Of course your views are valid, just as much as mine. It's just that your perception is based on your experiences, values etc. Mine are probably a bit different. It's just what we (I lived in Florida with my parents and brothers, and in OK one time with five and 2 times with one other Dutch student), being from the Netherlands, noticed when we were in the US. We also noticed other things that we thought were weird, just because they were different from what we were used to. Even stranger was the fact that when we came back, we kept on comparing the Netherlands with the US, and had to get adjusted to living there again. In my perception, now also based on the time I spent in the US, some things in the Netherlands were weird. Everything seemed small and crowded, and the people less helpful and friendly at first contact. Back to the US and trash, it's not bad, but it can be improved (like, uhh, everywhere...). We consider the US as a country where nationalism is quite strong, but I think the Dutch have a strange habit of denying our own nationalism. We never say we are proud of the Netherlands, and will criticize it very much, but actually we love it very much in a strange way. If you don't get it, don't worry, it's just weird. We are however very much pro-USA, only during the Bush administration this was temporarily a bit less. I also like the US very much (it has its pros and cons, just like our country and most other countries), so I don't think my views are based very much on nationalism. That's fine. I just wanted to know who I'm talking to . I know what you mean about the reverse culture shock. I went through that myself when I went back to the US after four and a half years of living in Korea. After that, regardless of where I live, I sometimes get nostalgic about something in the other places I've lived. Peace.
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