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Post by sigurdur on Jul 16, 2011 19:29:56 GMT
magellan:
Actually, you have this backwards. El Nino cools of the oceans long term. La Nina warms the oceans.
The reason being that ocean readiation/convection is constant. The phenominum is so large and affects such a large area that when the heat is expressed, it is cooling.
Vice versa for La Nina.
We all know that what affects ocean heat is the Sun. The bands emitted with co2 in mind have no penetrative power and only skin warms.
La Nina= cooing atmosphere, warming ocean.
El Nino= warming atmosphere, cooling ocean.
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 16, 2011 19:30:49 GMT
If we hadn't had a La Nina in the very recent past the OHC would be lower than present. IF we have another La Nina one would expect OHC to rise a bit.
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Post by thermostat on Jul 18, 2011 0:36:53 GMT
Thermostat, My point is that you're full of it - as usual. hairball, ENSO stands for 'the El Nino Southern Oscillation'. (Funny name for a phenomenon which is not a cycle.) Oscillation? back and forth? ... If ENSO is not a cycle, how do you characterize it? a random event? You write "you're full of it - as usual". I take that to mean, I'm full of familiarity with contemporary science; which appears to be a deficiency for you. But providing a recent scientific reference to support your point would be relevant. |
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 18, 2011 1:53:20 GMT
Thermostat, My point is that you're full of it - as usual. hairball, ENSO stands for 'the El Nino Southern Oscillation'. (Funny name for a phenomenon which is not a cycle.) Oscillation? back and forth? ... If ENSO is not a cycle, how do you characterize it? a random event? You write "you're full of it - as usual". I take that to mean, I'm full of familiarity with contemporary science; which appears to be a deficiency for you. But providing a recent scientific reference to support your point would be relevant. Actually Thermostat, you are not quit correct. ENSO is as you indicate, but there are cycles within the PDO that drive the cycles within the ENSO |
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Post by magellan on Jul 18, 2011 1:59:00 GMT
magellan: Actually, you have this backwards. El Nino cools of the oceans long term. La Nina warms the oceans. The reason being that ocean readiation/convection is constant. The phenominum is so large and affects such a large area that when the heat is expressed, it is cooling. Vice versa for La Nina. We all know that what affects ocean heat is the Sun. The bands emitted with co2 in mind have no penetrative power and only skin warms. La Nina= cooing atmosphere, warming ocean. El Nino= warming atmosphere, cooling ocean. Sigurdur, I said El Nino is a cooling. That is exactly what it is, shedding heat, although it seems counter intuitive to some. To me however, it means the larger the El Nino, the more the earth is cooling. Many think El Nino means more warming, I don't. In fact, I think La Nina is just as if not more important than El Nino. La Nina is a recharge of the oceans, however, many mistake La Nina as the opposite of El Nino. La Nina does not necessarily mean there will be cooling of the atmosphere during the entire completion of its part of the cycle. We are seeing that now in the U.S. It is HOT. If during the ENSO cycle there is not a net gain in OHC, then the earth is not gaining heat, ala "global warming" is not occurring. That is what we've seen since 2003. It is therefore good reason why SAT should not be looked at as how to measure "global" warming. There is still a discontinuity between OHC and SST during the transition from XBT to ARGO; that mysterious step change to 2003. And isn't it interesting that since ARGO was implemented, meaning the spatial coverage is now much greater, it revealed that global warming did in fact come to a halt despite the contortions by some to claim it has continued "unabated". climexp.knmi.nl/get_index.cgi |
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Post by thermostat on Jul 18, 2011 2:04:19 GMT
hairball, ENSO stands for 'the El Nino Southern Oscillation'. (Funny name for a phenomenon which is not a cycle.) Oscillation? back and forth? ... If ENSO is not a cycle, how do you characterize it? a random event? You write "you're full of it - as usual". I take that to mean, I'm full of familiarity with contemporary science; which appears to be a deficiency for you. But providing a recent scientific reference to support your point would be relevant. Actually Thermostat, you are not quit correct. ENSO is as you indicate, but there are cycles within the PDO that drive the cycles within the ENSO sigurdur, Nibbling is an established tradition, I appreciate. But for the purposes of this forum, is ENSO best described as 'a cycle' or 'a random event'? |
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Post by sigurdur on Jul 18, 2011 2:13:02 GMT
Enso is a random event within a cyclical event. The PDO drives whether it is a La Nina or a El Nino.
I know you must know this so I won't belabour the point.
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Post by thermostat on Jul 18, 2011 2:22:14 GMT
Enso is a random event within a cyclical event. The PDO drives whether it is a La Nina or a El Nino. I know you must know this so I won't belabour the point. sigurdur, What I remain fixated on is the question of whether some forum member here can provide a scientific citation to justify their alternative view of reality; in this specific case ENSO. There is plenty of literature on ENSO. But it is a recurring practice here where denialists make such unsubstantiated assertions. |
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Post by magellan on Jul 18, 2011 3:47:39 GMT
Enso is a random event within a cyclical event. The PDO drives whether it is a La Nina or a El Nino. I know you must know this so I won't belabour the point. sigurdur, What I remain fixated on is the question of whether some forum member here can provide a scientific citation to justify their alternative view of reality; in this specific case ENSO. There is plenty of literature on ENSO. But it is a recurring practice here where denialists make such unsubstantiated assertions. Ever hear of the 'Great Pacific Climate Shift' ?  |
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Post by thermostat on Jul 18, 2011 4:08:55 GMT
sigurdur, What I remain fixated on is the question of whether some forum member here can provide a scientific citation to justify their alternative view of reality; in this specific case ENSO. There is plenty of literature on ENSO. But it is a recurring practice here where denialists make such unsubstantiated assertions. Ever hear of the 'Great Pacific Climate Shift' ? quote] Nope, I haven't. Got some useful scientific citations to check out? |
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Post by magellan on Jul 18, 2011 4:14:35 GMT
sigurdur, What I remain fixated on is the question of whether some forum member here can provide a scientific citation to justify their alternative view of reality; in this specific case ENSO. There is plenty of literature on ENSO. But it is a recurring practice here where denialists make such unsubstantiated assertions. Ever hear of the 'Great Pacific Climate Shift' ? quote] Nope, I haven't. Got some useful scientific citations to check out? You still haven't demonstrated the ability to read a simple graph, so why bother. |
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Post by thermostat on Jul 18, 2011 4:20:27 GMT
Ever hear of the 'Great Pacific Climate Shift' ? quote] Nope, I haven't. Got some useful scientific citations to check out? You still haven't demonstrated the ability to read a simple graph, so why bother. Magellan, Once again, when challenging the scientifc concensus, the burden is on the objector. Magellan, what have you got? You've shown nothing so far. |
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Post by scpg02 on Jul 18, 2011 5:46:55 GMT
Ever hear of the 'Great Pacific Climate Shift' ? quote] Nope, I haven't. Got some useful scientific citations to check out? You still haven't demonstrated the ability to read a simple graph, so why bother. I have boys his age and his behavior is sooooo familiar. My older boy seems to have grown out of it and he is only 22. tstat acts more like my 19 year old. |
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Post by norpag on Jul 18, 2011 14:03:58 GMT
For the purposes of climate and global temperature discussion it is blindingly obvious that global temperatures and Global SSTs increase during an El Nino and are lower during La Nina.
Magellan is simply bonkers calling a Global SST increase a cooling.By his argument if the oceans boiled away he would describe it as an Ice AGE because of the enormous cooling.
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Post by codetalker on Jul 18, 2011 15:26:57 GMT
Magellan Quote: La Nina= cooing atmosphere, warming ocean. El Nino= warming atmosphere, cooling ocean Norpag Quote: For the purposes of climate and global temperature discussion it is blindingly obvious that global temperatures and Global SSTs increase during an El Nino and are lower during La Nina. NOAA Quote: www.elnino.noaa.gov/lanina.html“La Niña is associated with cooler than normal water temperatures in the Equatorial Pacific Ocean, unlike El Niño which is associated with warmer than normal water.” NOAA is stating a condition not a direction. So from my seat both sides Magellan and Norpag are correct. It sound like an equivocal argument. It sounds like Magellan is viewing El Nino as an effect of cooling not a condition of warming e.g., a hot oven with an open door is shedding heat and is cooling, not warming. Interesting link below with some interesting graphs. I can't verify accuracy of the graphs so read with caution. I did like the comment "Sunspots are areas of cooling on the surface of the sun." This line of reason would fit in with Magellan's line of thought that El Nino is a cooling. Does anyone have information regarding Sunspot activity during periods of El Nino and La Nina activity? gthing.net/misleading-graphs |
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